Ötzi the Iceman

—tzi the Iceman is in the news again. New research reveals the cause of his death to be not the arrow wound in his shoulder but an impact at the back of the head. —tzi likely died with his killer standing over him.

Discovery Channel: 'Cause of Iceman's Death'

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I hope this can be a thread where we share and discuss research about the Iceman and his regional contemporaries.

(Daily Mail, UK)

-----Background—tzi is the 5,700-year-old man whose body was discovered by mountain climbers in 1991. The find has yielded a wealth of material for scientific study, including genetic material for —tzi and his assailants, animals and plants.And for a guy whose life, according to YEC views, makes him a contemporary of Adam and Eve, —tzi has endured a cold shoulder indeed from the people who should be most thrilled to find him. He gets no mention at Ken Ham's new 'creation museum' tourist attraction or on dozens of creationist web sites. YECs here don't talk about him unless someone else brings up the subject first.Why does a group so eager to mount expeditions to Noah's ark practically ostracize this son of Adam? Well, maybe it's because —tzi falsifies many YEC assertions about the 'pre-Flood' world. A now classic (and still open) thread hosted by jar deals with this aspect of —tzi.

EvC Forum:
Looking for the Super-Genome

That discussion gave birth to a fascinating thread, also still open, dedicated to the world as it really existed 5767 years ago. Research tells us quite a bit about that time, so there's no reason for anyone to operate in the dark. (This material is a great resource for us; it would be good to build up this body of information.)

EvC Forum: The World 5767 Years Ago

-----GoalThis background is provided to help people find related threads that may interest them. This thread will deal with research developments on the Iceman proper, plus any related discoveries about contemporaries.A Science forum, to be determined by our Admins.______Edited by Archer Opterix, : code.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Hmm. and Holy shit! This is obviously Abel!

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I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

Archer please note that your link to "EvC Forum: Looking for the Super-Genome" is broken.I just finished reading the National Geo article on this fellow. The article considered that he died quickly from the arrow puncture but now it looks like the bad guys wanted him dead - now. The interesting thing is that the arrow shaft was not found, meaning that whoever shot him retrieved their arrow shaft, supposedly not to be linked to the murder.Nevertheless I have not come across any YEC's dealing with this finding. His age would make him a close cousin to Adam. Further just how did this glacier and —tzi stay in place during the flood.

Thanks for mentioning the bad link, iceage. I fixed the code in the OP.That thread is too good to miss. It was a slam dunk from the OP. Nothing left to do but fill in details and watch the resident YEC at the time have a total breakdown.Maybe the assailants were bad guys or maybe the Iceman was the bad guy. One thing's for sure: he seems to have been no more popular in his own time than he is now among YECs.

Or because those suckers are difficult to make/expensive.

Seems odd, though, that they didn't grab the axe. I would think that a copper axe would be of some value.

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I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

The most likely thing in my estimation is that the arrow was torn out by Otzi himself and even the fatal wound happened earlier. The arrow is likely back somewhere along the trail.The facts are that he had a bunch of valuable artifacts with him, expensive, valuable things like his shoes, jacket, the axe, the pouch. If others had been at the scene when he died it is unlikely that they would have left such valuable things at the site.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That was my original thought. However, the fellow had a complete boy scout kit with him that was not looted. Some have speculated that the arrow shaft was pulled out to cover tracks.Another theory is that they had leave in a hurry and could not check the victim over for possessions. I suspect that the copper axe would have been like gold in those times.... He had with him a dozen arrow shafts in various stages of development and good serviceable bearskin hat. More images of his possessions can be found here.http://www.laughtergenealogy.com/...istprof/misc/iceman.htmlEdited by iceage, : No reason given.

(1) How do you know the body is 5,700 years old? Were you there when he died?(2) Dating technigues are flawed. I'm not going to say why, but they are obviously flawed.(3) This is just another part of the liberal agenda to make people doubt god.(4) The fact that science had to change the story about how he died is very telling of how science is never right. The book of truth (the bible), on the other hand, never changes, so we know for sure that there is only one truth.

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Disclaimer:

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Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

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He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

Is that any way to talk about Abel?___

Another possibility is that —tzi was shot by accident and either hit his head or the hunting party put him out if his misery with a final blow. Pulling out the arrow, or at least the shaft, might have been removal of incriminating evidence. Leaving —tzi's own belongings with him means the hunter avoids carrying incriminating evidence.Another possibility: same scenario, but he wasn't shot by accident. —tzi was killed on purpose for some motive other than robbery, such as a vengeance/feud killing. (Maybe his older brother was jealous of his ability to grow vegetables.) Again, the deed done, the arrow was retrieved to avoid leaving incriminating evidence. Leaving —tzi's belongings with him would be done for the same reason: the killer doesn't want to be found carrying it.____

Otzi was probably killed by someone he knew and was part of his group. A stranger would have taken everything.Everyone in the group would notice, after Otzi has not returned from a hunting trip,that one of their members suddenly had Otzi's ax, arrows, dagger, and bear hat.Amateur criminologists might check out:NecroSearch International, Inc.I found out about this group because my wife who just graduated w/a degree in geology from CU Boulder (at 56 no less) took a course there in using geology and geophysics to locate clandestine graves.Interesting stuff.

Another possibility is that the conflict concluded at night and his attackers were unable to locate his valuables because they forgot their flashlights. There are endless scenarios that allow for an attacker who was on scene but failed to loot everything.-x

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Idiots speak louder than words(yes its supposed to be ironical... twice)

Very interesting, petro. Thanks for the link.Someone should put CSI on this.Speaking of —tzi's valuables--a chat room rumour has it —tzi the Iceman and —tzi the Johnson parted company somewhere along the way. Not surprising, I guess. It's unlikely —tzi the Abdominal Soft Tissue would fare well over the centuries in any case.When 3,700 years old we reach, look as good we will not. Mmm.