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Author Topic:   Homo Erectus Palaeojavanicus and the origin of modern man
SidRoc
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 19 (234912)
08-19-2005 5:55 PM


I will first state I am new to these forums. I have been reading the EvC forums for a while now to see both sides of this arguement. As I was researching the origin of modern man I came across Homo Erectus Palaeojavanicus.Palaeojavanicus was found by anthropologist Gustav Heinrich Ralph von Koenigswald in 1934 at the Sangiran site on the island of java. The find was originally called Meganthropus. The remains where found along with remains of Java man (Pithecanthropus erectus).The finds of Palaeojavanicus consisted of a Cranium, Lower Jaw and Femur. Judging from the bones found Palaeojavanicus was 9 to 11 feet tall. Remains of Palaeojavanicus where found in Australia and Indonesia.There remains are found with Acheulean era tools of enormouse size.My information has been collected from Wikipedia. In the Annual Review of Anthropology Vol. 25: 275-301 (Volume publication date October 1996) THE FOSSIL EVIDENCE FOR HUMAN EVOLUTION IN ASIA Dennis A. Etler mentions the Palaeojavanicus findings. I have yet to find information refuting the findings of Palaeojavanicus, although it was hard to come by good evidence becuase of all the creationist and other misguiding information about it. My question is where does Homo Erectus Palaeojavanicus fit in with the evolution of humans?
This message has been edited by SidRoc, 08-20-2005 09:00 PM
This message has been edited by SidRoc, 08-20-2005 10:13 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by SidRoc, posted 08-20-2005 7:57 PM SidRoc has not replied
 Message 3 by AdminNosy, posted 08-20-2005 8:28 PM SidRoc has replied
 Message 12 by John Williams, posted 09-01-2005 12:39 AM SidRoc has replied
 Message 15 by Ben!, posted 09-02-2005 11:58 PM SidRoc has not replied

  
SidRoc
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 19 (235077)
08-20-2005 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by SidRoc
08-19-2005 5:55 PM


Waiting for a Admin to move this to the right board.

This message is a reply to:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 3 of 19 (235082)
08-20-2005 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by SidRoc
08-19-2005 5:55 PM


Sorry about the delay.
I'm afraid that opening posts needs a bit more in it.
For one thing you will need refrences to information about this H. Erectus subspecies.
I think I can predict the outcome of the discussion already but if you supply references I'll promote this to, what?, Human Origins?
The outcome will be that there is not good support for the existance of the big guys. They are crank science. That's just my prediction but if you are willing to take this on and support it then have fun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by SidRoc, posted 08-19-2005 5:55 PM SidRoc has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by SidRoc, posted 08-20-2005 8:32 PM AdminNosy has replied
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SidRoc
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 19 (235085)
08-20-2005 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by AdminNosy
08-20-2005 8:28 PM


Re: Sorry about the delay.
Alright I will edit it and add references and a little bit of more information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by AdminNosy, posted 08-20-2005 8:28 PM AdminNosy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by AdminNosy, posted 08-20-2005 8:33 PM SidRoc has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 5 of 19 (235087)
08-20-2005 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by SidRoc
08-20-2005 8:32 PM


I'll watch for it...
although my kids are either starving or eating the cat while I wait. But that's only fair since you were patient before.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by SidRoc, posted 08-20-2005 8:32 PM SidRoc has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by SidRoc, posted 08-20-2005 9:05 PM AdminNosy has replied

  
SidRoc
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 19 (235100)
08-20-2005 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by AdminNosy
08-20-2005 8:33 PM


Re: I'll watch for it...
Thanks for waiting. I believe the Human Origins forums would be a good place for this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by AdminNosy, posted 08-20-2005 8:33 PM AdminNosy has replied

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 7 of 19 (235120)
08-20-2005 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by SidRoc
08-20-2005 9:05 PM


an actual link please
See the help next to dbcodes on (on the left when you re editing) for how to format a nice link.
It will save others time if you do that. I think you will need (but we'll get to that) a more primary reference than wikipedia but that is somewhere for people to start.

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 8 of 19 (235130)
08-20-2005 10:14 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 9 of 19 (235132)
08-20-2005 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by AdminNosy
08-20-2005 8:28 PM


Crank? not
It appears I was wrong about this being crank science.
However, it also appears that there is an easy answer to the question. There was some bushiness in the Homo line even rather late on and this represents just one branch that got cut off.

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SidRoc
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 19 (235191)
08-21-2005 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by AdminNosy
08-20-2005 10:16 PM


Re: Crank? not
This find could easily be a group that was cut off from the Homo line. I am looking to find more information on this that is credible. There is enough evidence making the find credible but I have found little information on it. Science while aknowledging the existance hasnt made much of this find it would seem. One of the things I am trying to find information on is the reason they grew to be so large. There size compared to modern man is so completly different that it is a mystery to me as to why this find has not recieved more attention. Does anyone know any credible sources books, websites I might find more information on Palaeojavanicus?

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 11 of 19 (235221)
08-21-2005 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by SidRoc
08-21-2005 4:15 AM


giants and pygmies do evolve
I did a quick google and wikipedia search to validate that there was evidence for this.
I don't think we should be surprise, really. We have Homo floriensis on the small end and your Homo erectus palaeojavanicus on the other. There were also size differences between other species ... robustus and [/i]gracile[/i] Australopithicines.
We are also aware of instances of gigantisism and dwarfism in other species ... the "Pygmy Mammoth" (Channel Islands) comes to mind (in part because it is an oxymoron)
There are also factors know to exist when these extreme diversions evolve, and it would be interesting to see if that also applies here. (floriensis was an island species it seems)
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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John Williams
Member (Idle past 4998 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 12 of 19 (239315)
09-01-2005 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by SidRoc
08-19-2005 5:55 PM


Re:
I have a copy of Weidenreich's book, "Apes, Giants, and Man" which was written in 1946. This book has some very interesting pictures of the Paleojavanicus fossil jaw, most notibly the Sangiran 6. mandible. The structure of this Erectine certainly suggests a sort of genetic gigantism was present.
I do not know of any other Meganthropus findings, but have heard that there were some fossils of it found in Africa.
Weidenreich does not outright tell us how tall Meganthropus was in his book, but indicates a massive weight of 600 or more lbs. "twice the size of a Gorilla" he said.
All in all, It doesn't look like many Meganthropus specimens have been found or well published. If a giant of this sort has been confirmed I would think the scientific community would show as much interest or even more so than homo floresiensis. However, from reading archive News articles from the late 40's, Meganthropus did get some spotlight in the NY Times and Washington Post with headlines such as "Largest’ Ape Man Found in Africa; Indicated to Top 9-Foot Java Man" NYTimes[Dec 1, 1948]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by SidRoc, posted 08-19-2005 5:55 PM SidRoc has replied

Replies to this message:
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SidRoc
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 19 (239328)
09-01-2005 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by John Williams
09-01-2005 12:39 AM


Re: Re:
I agree. I am very perplexed on why interest in this has not been directed more to it. The find has enough evidence, so why not more attention?

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John Williams
Member (Idle past 4998 days)
Posts: 157
From: Oregon, US
Joined: 06-29-2004


Message 14 of 19 (240138)
09-02-2005 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by SidRoc
09-01-2005 1:22 AM


Re: Re:
I'm not sure. Meganthropus is not all that well known in scientific circles as it is.

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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 15 of 19 (240147)
09-02-2005 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by SidRoc
08-19-2005 5:55 PM


3 abstracts 4 ya
Hey SidRoc,
I guess you don't have access to online academic databases. I do for a while, so I ran a search on the first database that sounded "comprehensive". Out of 7 hits for "Palaeojavanicus", here are 3 abstracts that seemed they might give you the information you're looking for.
If you can somehow track down these articles, that is...
P.S. Sorry for the big long paste. Hope this is within "company policy" here.
Title: Chemical and mineralogical studies on hominid remains from Sangiran, Central Java (Indonesia)
Author(s): Sighinolfi, G. P.; Sartono, S.; Artioli, G.
Source: Journal of Human Evolution 24 (1) : 57-68 1993
Abstract: Chemical and isotopic studies, as well as X-ray diffraction and SEM analysis were carried out on bone remains of hominids from Sangiran, Central Java. Parts of theskull of several hominid remains, included in the conventional Homo (Pithecanthropus) erectus and Meganthropus palaeojavanicus taxa, together with a series of human teeth from Sangiran, were analysed for main and trace elements and 18O/16O isotropic ratios. Main and trace element chemistry appears to be related on one hand to the mineralogy of the specimens and thus to the fossilization process, and on the other to the alleged taxonomy of the hominid remains. In predominantly phosphatic remains, fluorine and other elements "sensitive" to fossilization are homogeneously distributed among the different specimens, while elements such as V, Mn, K, Ba and Mg tend to correlate with the proposed age of the fossils. This is also the case in predominantly carbonatic remains, where a series of elements (Mn, Mg, Sr, V, Mo and Sn) tend to accumulate in the more archaic fossils as well. Oxygen isotope date (delta-18O around + 15 permill indicate oxygen isotope fractionation with surface waters during diagenesis. Vanadium is shown to be a potentially useful chemical parameter to indicate the relative age of bone fossils in environmental conditions similar to those present in Java.
Title: HOMO-ERECTUS THE NEVER-ENDING DISPUTE
Author(s): SARTONO S
Source: Anthropologie (Paris) 95 (1) : 123-136 1991
Abstract: There is still no unanimous agreement on the taxonomic status of Homo Pithecanthropus) erectus. Many workers suggest that all Javanese early human fossils are Pithecanthropus. Two groups of early men are found in Java: Homo and Australopithecus,the first divided into Homo robustus and Homo erectus while the sedond is Australopithecus (Meganthropus) palaeojavanicus. Their stratigraphic locations, radiometric and paleomagnetic dates, regional distribution and associated artefacts are discussed. Morphological differences in time and space suggest that Pleistocene hominids from Southeast Asia were subjected to evolution while they migrated from Asia toward Australia. During the Upper Pleistocene migratory movements had an explosive character instigated by changing paleogeography and paleoenvironment caused by a combination of paleoclimatological conditions and plate tectonics. Two migration routes, a western and a northern one, existed respectively coming from Sunda Shelf and the Filippines both arriving in Wallacea. Possibly both routes arrived also in Sahul, respectively in Australia and in Irian Jaya/Papuan New Guinea. These are shown by the find of Upper Pleistocene Mungo and late Pleistocene Kow Swamp populations in Australia and the Upper Pleistocene Kosipe site in Papua New Guinea. All these indicate the existence of a gene flow between Asia and Australia - Irian Jaya/Papua New Guinea through the Southeast Asian region.
Title: ENDO CRANIAL VASCULAR GROOVES OF THE MIDDLE MENINGEAL VEINS PATTERN AND STAGES OF THE HUMAN EVOLUTION
Author(s): SABAN R
Source: Annales de Paleontologie 68 (2) : 171-220 1982
Abstract: The modifications of vascular grooves, engraved on the endocranial wall in man are studied in endocast. The middle meningeal veins system is composed of 3 main branches. Between those ramifications extending from the branches, there is a dense network including 1 anastomotic squarring. In modern man, this network is mainly located on the parietal bone and just a little on the frontal one. Starting from Australopithecus, the pattern during the human evolution becomes progressively complicated. The 1st anastomoses are found in Homo habilis. The arborization of the 3 branches increases in Homo erectus. According to Sartono (1980), the pithecanthropines of Indonesia include 2 taxa: H. erectus, H. palaeojavanicus. This same distinction is made from the middle meningeal system. In the H. erectus lineage which disappears with the Neanderthals, the squarring anastomotic system is nonexistent. In the H. palaeojavanicus lineage, the anastomoses make an increasingly dense network.

I don't want a large Farva, I want a goddamn liter-a-cola.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by SidRoc, posted 08-19-2005 5:55 PM SidRoc has not replied

  
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