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Author Topic:   Unconditional devotion?
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5312 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 1 of 17 (521996)
08-31-2009 10:36 AM


As a very occasional visitor to this site, I thought I’d like to pose a question that does not require much input from me should any level of debate ensue.
An area that’s always interested me is the relationship many believers feel they have with their god or gods. A sentiment that is often expressed by believers is that their god gradually reveals itself to them, much as might be the case in human relationships.
Of course, in human relationships we frequently find that as we learn more about another, our feelings towards them can change quite significantly — sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.
So I suppose the question I might want to pose to believers is, if their god is revealing itself to them, can they ever imagine a time when what is revealed is so unacceptable to them, they no longer wish to continue the relationship? Or is their devotion unconditional, i.e. nothing could ever be revealed that could damage the relationship, no matter how grotesque it might appear to an onlooker?
I ask these questions because sometimes when I hear believers talk about their god, it reminds me of what might be described as battered wife syndrome. The phrases that can be heard aren’t so different from, he’s a good man really, you don’t know him like I do, I know he loves me in his own way and it was my own fault, I forced him to do this to me.
In conclusion, should this topic get promoted, I hope some interesting points of view might emerge.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by hooah212002, posted 09-01-2009 3:11 PM dogrelata has replied
 Message 7 by Peg, posted 09-02-2009 5:14 AM dogrelata has replied

  
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Message 2 of 17 (522106)
09-01-2009 8:11 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Unconditional devotion? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 3 of 17 (522156)
09-01-2009 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dogrelata
08-31-2009 10:36 AM


I see the standard "if it's good, praise god. If it's bad, it wasn't meant to be or it's god’s will". So in that aspect, a true believer NEVER waivers in faith, no matter the evidence presented.
I was listening to Wisconsin Public radio the other day. they had a guest speaker on. His name is William Lobdell. He was speaking about his book he had written, "Losing My Religion: How I Lost My Faith Reporting on Religion in America-and Found Unexpected Peace". It was about how he had been a heavy drinker.."sinner" if you will, then found god. It entails his 20 years as a devout Christian, being a journalist and then uncovering the nitty gritty about Catholicism, causing him to lose his faith in god, and turn into an Atheist.
One particular event he had mentioned was about a priest who had been uncovered as a pedophile, but allowed into priesthood and allowed to preach at this church. He came out, told the congregation about it.....and was fucking PRAISED. They wanted to name the church after him! After he got done telling how he had done what he had done, the entire church gave him a standing ovation.
Jesus finds the good in every situation.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dogrelata, posted 08-31-2009 10:36 AM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by dogrelata, posted 09-01-2009 4:43 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5312 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 4 of 17 (522185)
09-01-2009 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by hooah212002
09-01-2009 3:11 PM


hooah212002 writes:
I see the standard "if it's good, praise god. If it's bad, it wasn't meant to be or it's god’s will". So in that aspect, a true believer NEVER waivers in faith, no matter the evidence presented.
I assume from what you say, you are very much a believer in unconditional devotion and you cannot imagine your god revealing anything of himself to you that would ever change that. Do you believe that to be a good thing, or is the goodness, or otherwise, of it irrelevant? Is the unconditional nature of the devotion the only thing that matters to you, the consequences of such being irrelevant, whatever they may be?
In other words, can you imagine your god ever asking of you anything you would feel unwilling to do?
Edited by dogrelata, : Too many "evers" in one sentence!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by hooah212002, posted 09-01-2009 3:11 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by hooah212002, posted 09-01-2009 4:13 PM dogrelata has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 5 of 17 (522176)
09-01-2009 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by dogrelata
09-01-2009 4:43 PM


Well, i don't have a god, so......
I was merely stating what i assumed the theist response would be. I have witnessed it first hand with members of my family when i pose the question of "why did god let "x" happen".
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by dogrelata, posted 09-01-2009 4:43 PM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by dogrelata, posted 09-02-2009 3:59 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5312 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 6 of 17 (522244)
09-02-2009 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by hooah212002
09-01-2009 4:13 PM


hooah212002 writes:
Well, i don't have a god, so......
I did wonder from the tone of your response in the third paragraph of [Msg=-3], and from your avatar, where you might be coming from. Hopefully some true believers will come along and offer some thoughts that will start the ball rolling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by hooah212002, posted 09-01-2009 4:13 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 7 of 17 (522247)
09-02-2009 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by dogrelata
08-31-2009 10:36 AM


dogrelata writes:
if their god is revealing itself to them, can they ever imagine a time when what is revealed is so unacceptable to them, they no longer wish to continue the relationship? Or is their devotion unconditional
I could be really self righteous and claim that my devotion is unconditional, but the reality is that its not and i think most christians would be kidding themselves if they claimed that their devotion was unconditional.
my experience has been that as i gained knowledge and understanding (the revealing perhaps) my devotion grew, it certainly wasnt instant but its through understanding Gods purpose and wanting to be a part of that purpose that i can call myself devoted today. So, no...there is nothing that may appear grotesque to onlookers that would damage my current devotion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dogrelata, posted 08-31-2009 10:36 AM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by hooah212002, posted 09-02-2009 5:52 AM Peg has replied
 Message 12 by dogrelata, posted 09-02-2009 4:47 PM Peg has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 8 of 17 (522249)
09-02-2009 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Peg
09-02-2009 5:14 AM


I'm sorry, maybe I am mistaken. Isn't that exactly the unconditional devotion the OP is talking about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Peg, posted 09-02-2009 5:14 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Peg, posted 09-02-2009 6:22 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 9 of 17 (522252)
09-02-2009 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by hooah212002
09-02-2009 5:52 AM


hooah212002 writes:
I'm sorry, maybe I am mistaken. Isn't that exactly the unconditional devotion the OP is talking about?
devotion isnt given unconditionally
its something that develops, therefore if the premis of the Op is that people give God their devotion unconditionally, then that is not correct to begin with because devotion isnt automatic
it hopefully develops through knowledge and is based on reason.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by hooah212002, posted 09-02-2009 5:52 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by hooah212002, posted 09-02-2009 6:32 AM Peg has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 10 of 17 (522253)
09-02-2009 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Peg
09-02-2009 6:22 AM


I feel as though we are each reading the OP in our own light.
It is my understanding that he is asking whether or not you, or any religious person, are unwavering in your devotion, no matter the evidence shown to you, or no matter the lunacy you may come to see in your faith.
If your priest turned out to be a child molester, and your congregation applauded him and wanted to name th eparish after him, how would that make you feel?
If the bible was proven to be factually errent, how would you feel?
Again, maybe I misinterpreted the OP's words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Peg, posted 09-02-2009 6:22 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Peg, posted 09-02-2009 6:57 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 11 of 17 (522258)
09-02-2009 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by hooah212002
09-02-2009 6:32 AM


hooah212002 writes:
I feel as though we are each reading the OP in our own light. It is my understanding that he is asking whether or not you, or any religious person, are unwavering in your devotion, no matter the evidence shown to you, or no matter the lunacy you may come to see in your faith.
well even the bible tells us to test if the teachings are true before they are believed...the christians asked for evidence before they would devote themselves to Jesus and we should do the same. this means devotion is not unconditional.
anyone who has come to an understanding of bible truth knows that God is worthy of devotion...and because of that understanding, devotion developed in them.
I guess im coming from a different angle because devotion didn't come automatically to me...it came after quite a few years of study. My study led me to the conclusion that God's justice, mercy, love and purposes are worthy of devotion and nothing i've learnt can detract from that.
However, if my church, as an organization, started doing things contrary to the bible, then I would leave the church in a heartbeat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by hooah212002, posted 09-02-2009 6:32 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5312 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 12 of 17 (522349)
09-02-2009 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Peg
09-02-2009 5:14 AM


Peg writes:
my experience has been that as i gained knowledge and understanding (the revealing perhaps) my devotion grew, it certainly wasnt instant but its through understanding Gods purpose and wanting to be a part of that purpose that i can call myself devoted today. So, no...there is nothing that may appear grotesque to onlookers that would damage my current devotion.
You say that as your knowledge and understanding has grown, then so has your devotion to your god. Would you now say what you have is a relationship with your god? If so, would you also say that the relationship grows stronger as your knowledge and understanding increases?
I also want to ask whether you think your dependency on your god has grown along with your devotion? Do you feel you now have a greater need for your god than previously?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Peg, posted 09-02-2009 5:14 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Peg, posted 09-03-2009 5:01 AM dogrelata has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 13 of 17 (522380)
09-03-2009 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by dogrelata
09-02-2009 4:47 PM


dogrelata writes:
Would you now say what you have is a relationship with your god? If so, would you also say that the relationship grows stronger as your knowledge and understanding increases?
yes, i think its fair to say thats correct
dogrelata writes:
I also want to ask whether you think your dependency on your god has grown along with your devotion? Do you feel you now have a greater need for your god than previously?
Im not totally sure what you mean by dependency...i dont sit around waiting for him to do things if thats what you mean.
I guess I've learnt that we all really do need God in our life. I look forward to the future in a way that i never did previously. Actually, previously the future was quite bleak but now I see it as something very promising. In that way, my dependency on God has grown because I know the future is completely dependent on him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by dogrelata, posted 09-02-2009 4:47 PM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by hooah212002, posted 09-03-2009 6:57 AM Peg has replied
 Message 16 by dogrelata, posted 09-03-2009 9:29 AM Peg has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 14 of 17 (522386)
09-03-2009 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Peg
09-03-2009 5:01 AM


I guess I've learnt that we all really do need God in our life.
I'm sorry, but this really grinds my gears when you religious types try and harp YOUR views and beliefs on the whole fucking world. YOU need god in YOUR life. Don't tell me what i need in mine.
I look forward to the future in a way that i never did previously. Actually, previously the future was quite bleak but now I see it as something very promising. In that way, my dependency on God has grown because I know the future is completely dependent on him.
I look forward to the future too, and I don't need an invisible sky creature for that. i'm fine with YOU needing that,though. My kids are my future. I build my future. I'm not going to depend on something that has never shown any evidence of being there. Maybe I could put my life in the hands of.....the easter bunny?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Peg, posted 09-03-2009 5:01 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Peg, posted 09-03-2009 7:37 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 17 by dogrelata, posted 09-04-2009 4:52 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 15 of 17 (522395)
09-03-2009 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by hooah212002
09-03-2009 6:57 AM


sorry to offend you there i'll rephrase it:
'i've learned that 'I' really need God'
hope that makes you feel better

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by hooah212002, posted 09-03-2009 6:57 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
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