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Author Topic:   Evangelical Indoctrination of Children
Percy
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Posts: 22389
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1 of 295 (523462)
09-10-2009 1:45 PM


Tulsa reporter Russell Cobb's report titled Heretics on the rise and fall of Carlton Pearson was featured in the 12/8/2008 broadcast of This American Life. Pearson is a former charismatic Pentecostal preacher who at one point renounced hell and began preaching a ministry of inclusion where all souls go to heaven. Declared a heretic by the Pentecostals, he is now a United Church of Christ minister, and his former church, Higher Dimensions, merged with the All Souls Unitarian Church in Tulsa.
While recounting Pearson's story, Russell Cobb gives his impressions of evangelical feelings about the possibility of giving up belief in hell:
Russell Cobb writes:
I only got a sense for how big the break was when I tried to get people in Tulsa to talk about Carlton Pearson. Only two people who left the church, Martin Brown and Jeff Vogt, were willing to talk about the gospel of inclusion. Nobody else, none of the professors at Oral Roberts University, Oral Robert's own son, or ex-parishioners, would talk on tape. But I asked the people that did talk to us, "Why is it so important to believe in hell?"
They said they didn't want to think about God condemning people to writhing and knashing of teeth. They didn't want to think that people like me, people who aren't born again, are bound for eternal damnation.
But that was just the point. They didn't make the rules. God did. And he put them in the Bible. Belief in hell was just a test of faith.
Carlton received hundreds of letters from around the country making this point, like this one.
Dear Bishop Pearson,
You are playing right into the enemy's hands. With all due respect, you can't rewrite the Bible and put it the way you think things ought to be. Stick to the scriptures, because that's the way it is, whether we like it or not.
That tradition is powerful. People told me it was hard giving up hell after a lifetime of believing in it. Steve Palmer is still with Higher Dimensions. He's a youth pastor. He says hell is one of the first things he learned about as a young person, growing up in an evangelical church.
Here's Steve Palmer recounting his introduction to evangelical thinking on hell and salvation:
Steve Palmer writes:
The approach was, "What's the best way we can get the kid's attention. I know! We'll scare 'em! Do you like to burn? No. Do you want to spend forever in darkness? No. Well, then you better turn." That's how most of us got saved. We chose because the alternative was just...scary.
And there were movies, and things like that. There was a movie called A Thief in the Night. It was a low budget B Christian, I don't even know if it would be like B, maybe C or D, Christian movie that came out in the 70's with this real weird funky music. It was a dramatization of what would happen if the rapture happened.
And of course there's a whole big series out now, and there are movies that are even much milder than what we saw, but it scared the fire out of me when I was a kid. Because they had these images of a kid walking across the street with a pound of butter that she'd borrowed from the neighbor, and then the next thing you know the butter's laying there on the street. And kids are screaming and people are panicking, and there's this world order with this police and choppers and things like that.
Man, it scared me, because every time, and I lived in the country, we're out pulling weeds in the garden, and all of the sudden I turn around and Mom's not there anymore, I'm thinking, "Rapture!"
It would get dark, and Mom and Dad weren't around, I had my list of people I could call that I knew they would get raptured if it ever came to that, and sure enough, I actually put it to the test a couple of times, because I thought the rapture had happened, so I went to the phone and I'd call just to hear their voice answer. "Oh good, she's there, the rapture didn't happen." Because she's my Aunt May, and she was a missionary in Haiti for 28 years, she's definitely going on the first round.
Is this story from Steve Palmer how it starts for most evangelicals?
What Russell Cobb recounted in the first excerpt is just so familiar. It's what we hear from evangelicals all the time. "Don't blame us. We're not the ones who made the rules. God made the rules. God says when killing is murder and when it isn't. God says when rape is rape and when it isn't. God says you'll burn in hell for all eternity, not us. We're not hateful. We're just loving and obedient people following the rules laid down by a loving God."
There's no acknowledgement or even any hint of recognition that the Bible is open to many interpretations.
There's no sense of compassion.
There's no sense of responsibility.
There's no sense of remorse.
It is amazing what people will believe is good when they think it is God's will, as we see here all the time. Does it begin in childhood? Is the irrationality and determined ignorance we see displayed here everyday a result of childhood indoctrination? If you get to children when they're young and impressionable enough, are they doomed to a lifetime of evangelical closemindedness?
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

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AdminNosy
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


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Message 2 of 295 (523466)
09-10-2009 2:09 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Evangelical Indoctrination of Children thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 3 of 295 (523471)
09-10-2009 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-10-2009 1:45 PM


What Russell Cobb recounted in the first excerpt is just so familiar. It's what we hear from evangelicals all the time. "Don't blame us. We're not the ones who made the rules. God made the rules. God says when killing is murder and when it isn't. God says when rape is rape and when it isn't. God says you'll burn in hell for all eternity, not us. We're not hateful. We're just loving and obedient people following the rules laid down by a loving God."
There's no acknowledgement or even any hint of recognition that the Bible is open to many interpretations.
There's no sense of compassion.
There's no sense of responsibility.
There's no sense of remorse.
It is amazing what people will believe is good when they think it is God's will, as we see here all the time. Does it begin in childhood? Is the irrationality and determined ignorance we see displayed here everyday a result of childhood indoctrination? If you get to children when they're young and impressionable enough, are they doomed to a lifetime of evangelical closemindedness?
It's nothing more than Authoritarian ethics at work, where "God" acts as the authority. Moral values are literally subject to the whims of the Authority; performing action A may be considered ethically wrong today, but tomorrow the exact same act under the exact same circumstances can be considered ethically wrong if the Authority says so.
Moral value systems do tend to come from one's parents. If a child is specifically instructed during the formative years that "God's will" is good and anything against that is bad, then it should be expected that rape, murder, theft, lying, torture, and anything else would be considered good if it's done in accordance with God's perceived wishes, or to further what is perceived as God's plan.
Authoritarianism literally requires that the moral judgments of everyone other than the Authority are irrelevant. It doesn't matter if you or I think something is good or bad; if it's against God, it's bad, even if it saved a thousand lives.
Personally I find it to be a reprehensible system of ethics (and it seems you agree), but that's the system set down in the Bible. It's difficult to overcome tradition that strong.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 4 of 295 (523478)
09-10-2009 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-10-2009 1:45 PM


Perhaps you can start to understand my own present dilemma. My wife and two boys still attend my former church - a charismatic evangelical Hillsong-style church. The Sunday-school is thorough and effective in producing new generations of Bible-believing creationist Christians. My eldest made the comment the other week that he didn't think that my youngest was actually a Christian yet. I seriously felt ill on hearing this - on the us and them mentality already hard at work in an eight-year-old! I could write pages on this if I had the time, but just thought I'd mention that this is all weighing very heavily on my mind at the moment...

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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 5 of 295 (523489)
09-10-2009 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-10-2009 1:45 PM


quote:
Is this story from Steve Palmer how it starts for most evangelicals?
I hope it does not start this way for "most," but there is certainly an undercurrent that goes along with what Palmer says. This is especially true in the more emotionally-based groups (charismatics, Pentecostals, etc.)
In the less emotionally-based Evangelical groups (e.g. Baptists, Presbyterians) there is less of the approach that Palmer describes. There is concern that an emotional, fear-based approach may lead to a view of salvation only as a "fire escape" (avoidance of hell); there may be no real understanding of one's sin and spiritual need, and God's provision for that need through the sacrifice of His Son, thus no true salvation. Reputable children's ministries such as Child Evangelism Fellowship try to avoid the sort of emotional pressure that Palmer describes.
This sort of emotional approach is a problem for adults, too, and has caused harm in church history. Charles Finney used such an approach, working people into an emotional fervor. Many people came forward in the "altar calls" which he invented, but few were truly "converted." They tended to become resistant to the Christian message after the emotion wore off.

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ochaye
Member (Idle past 5238 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 6 of 295 (523506)
09-10-2009 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-10-2009 1:45 PM


quote:
The approach was, "What's the best way we can get the kid's attention. I know! We'll scare 'em! Do you like to burn?
Why is this sort of second-hand account accepted as representing what people actually say, or even think? Why is it accepted as representing Christians, as opposed to, perhaps, atheists posing as Christians?
The unquestioning, mindless acceptance of these notions in atheist circles exposes atheism in the USA as a deep and nasty well of bigotry and indeed stupidity, even puerility. When will America grow up?

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Rahvin
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Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 7 of 295 (523507)
09-10-2009 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by ochaye
09-10-2009 7:49 PM


The unquestioning, mindless acceptance of these notions in atheist circles exposes atheism in the USA as a deep and nasty well of bigotry and indeed stupidity, even puerility. When will America grow up?
News flash:
Christians are not a homogenous group. There are Christians who do behave this way. I've personally met several.
It's impossible to represent all Christians, simply becasue they believe in so many different things. Some don't beleive in Hell at all; others believe in salvation by works even for unbelievers, while others believe in salvation by grace for only believers.
Have you ever heard of Hell House?
They're a fundamentalist Christian group that hosts a haunted house on Halloween that specifically targets young people in an attempt to scare them for Jesus. They literally put on ridiculous little plays about the consequences of sin and tell all of the kids (mostly adolescents and teens) that they're going to Hell unless they accept Jesus.
I'm very glad yo hear that you, ochave, are not one of the fire-and-brimstone, scare-em-to-Jesus Christians. But it's ignorant to the point of stupidity to insist that these reports are somehow atheists masquerading as Christians. There is no evil atheist conspiracy to make Christians look bad; we aren't the tools of the Devil, we aren't attempting to subvert you or tempt you from the One True Path, and we aren't coming for your children. We simply don't believe what you believe, and some of us think that your beliefs are a bit ridiculous, even harmful in some cases. We certainly aren't engaging in some mass conspiracy to defame Christians.
The bad Christians do more than enough of that all on their own. All we ever do it point them out.

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ochaye
Member (Idle past 5238 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 8 of 295 (523509)
09-10-2009 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Rahvin
09-10-2009 8:08 PM


quote:
News flash:
This demonstrates the intellectual level of the USA.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22389
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 9 of 295 (523555)
09-11-2009 7:06 AM


Asking the question a different way...
Given the responses, let me come at this from a slightly different angle.
The two evangelical respondents both rejected "scare them to Jesus" approaches, so a fear of hell instilled during childhood is not the only way to create confirmed creationists who reject scientific theories for unscientific reasons. Let us grant for the sake of discussion that the approach described by Steve Palmer is uncommon. What is it that produces adults who feel a loving God is consistent with condemning most of the population of the Earth to an eternity of suffering in hell. Carlton Pearson put it this way:
Carlton Pearson writes:
I'm thinking of a little Tibetan monk. He's been a monk for the fourth generation. Here's a monk who all he does is every morning he takes the goats, he milks the goats, he takes them to another pasture, he works in the garden, he says some prayers, he burns some incense, he never marries, he doesn't kill, cuss, fight, lie. He never heard the gospel, never seen a television or a radio. He lives way up there in the cold.
He's taking goats to one pasture, he slips off a cliff, falls into a valley and dies. Is there a Jesus anywhere to receive that man? Or is the devil there, sucking him into hell?
I would say, "No, no no. My God loves you."
I think what we're saying is that we have a little trouble feeling the love when discussing salvation with evangelicals. We're given what sounds to us a very contradictory explanation, that God is love, that God makes the rules that condemn most of humanity to hell, that that's just the way it is, that God works in mysterious ways, that we must not question God, and by the way did we mention that God is love.
This thread raises the possibility of childhood indoctrination as an explanation, but what are the other possibilities?
--Percy

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ochaye
Member (Idle past 5238 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 10 of 295 (523589)
09-11-2009 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Percy
09-11-2009 7:06 AM


Re: Asking the question a different way...
quote:
I think what we're saying is that we have a little trouble feeling the love when discussing salvation with evangelicals.
Where? In this forum?
quote:
a very contradictory explanation, that God is love, that God makes the rules that condemn most of humanity to hell
But maybe most of humanity doesn't deserve to be anywhere else?

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 Message 9 by Percy, posted 09-11-2009 7:06 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 09-11-2009 5:54 PM ochaye has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 11 of 295 (523599)
09-11-2009 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Percy
09-11-2009 7:06 AM


Re: Asking the question a different way...
quote:
The two evangelical respondents both rejected "scare them to Jesus" approaches, so a fear of hell instilled during childhood is not the only way to create confirmed creationists who reject scientific theories for unscientific reasons.
What?? Why do you imply that evangelicals (including myself) are "creationists" who "reject scientific theories for unscientific reasons?" This implication is unwarranted and is demonstrably false. Francis Collins is a well-known counter-example to your implication.
quote:
Let us grant for the sake of discussion that the approach described by Steve Palmer is uncommon. What is it that produces adults who feel a loving God is consistent with condemning most of the population of the Earth to an eternity of suffering in hell.
I think your quote in the OP captured the reason pretty well:
Russell Cobb writes:
I only got a sense for how big the break was when I tried to get people in Tulsa to talk about Carlton Pearson. Only two people who left the church, Martin Brown and Jeff Vogt, were willing to talk about the gospel of inclusion. Nobody else, none of the professors at Oral Roberts University, Oral Robert's own son, or ex-parishioners, would talk on tape. But I asked the people that did talk to us, "Why is it so important to believe in hell?"
They said they didn't want to think about God condemning people to writhing and knashing of teeth. They didn't want to think that people like me, people who aren't born again, are bound for eternal damnation.
But that was just the point. They didn't make the rules. God did. And he put them in the Bible. Belief in hell was just a test of faith.
It's not that we like these ideas. But we have established the source and statements as true, so must try to incorporate these ideas into our theology, uncomfortable though it may be. I may not like quantum mechanics. But once I have convinced myself that the experiments and data are correct, I must try to incorporate QM into my view of the physical world, uncomfortable though it may be. At some point, we must allow our likes, dislikes, and aesthetic notions to be overruled by truth and reality, both in science and in theology.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 12 of 295 (523612)
09-11-2009 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by kbertsche
09-11-2009 11:27 AM


Re: Asking the question a different way...
At some point, we must allow our likes, dislikes, and aesthetic notions to be overruled by truth and reality, both in science and in theology.
But you appear to be a rational sort of person, kbertsche. Hundreds of my neighbors here in the Bible Belt are going to allow no such overruling, religiously or politically.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22389
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 13 of 295 (523646)
09-11-2009 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ochaye
09-11-2009 11:02 AM


Re: Asking the question a different way...
ochave writes:
quote:
I think what we're saying is that we have a little trouble feeling the love when discussing salvation with evangelicals.
Where? In this forum?
Yes, there's a couple recent examples. Look at If you were God, what kind of God would you be? for one.
But maybe most of humanity doesn't deserve to be anywhere else?
Well, okay, if that's the way you feel, but that's the uncompassionate and unloving attitude whose origins I'm inquiring about.
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22389
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 14 of 295 (523652)
09-11-2009 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by kbertsche
09-11-2009 11:27 AM


Re: Asking the question a different way...
kbertsche writes:
What?? Why do you imply that evangelicals (including myself) are "creationists" who "reject scientific theories for unscientific reasons?" This implication is unwarranted and is demonstrably false. Francis Collins is a well-known counter-example to your implication.
There was no intention to equate evangelicalism with creationism. Francis Collins, the well known evangelical who led the human genome project, is of course not a creationist.
It's not that we like these ideas. But we have established the source and statements as true, so must try to incorporate these ideas into our theology, uncomfortable though it may be. I may not like quantum mechanics. But once I have convinced myself that the experiments and data are correct, I must try to incorporate QM into my view of the physical world, uncomfortable though it may be. At some point, we must allow our likes, dislikes, and aesthetic notions to be overruled by truth and reality, both in science and in theology.
We accept scientific theories because their evidence and insights are accessible to all regardless of race, creed or culture. The same is not true of theology. As I've said before, you name it, the Bible has been used to justify it. If there's anything we can be certain of regarding the Bible it's that it equivocates about almost everything.
So claims that the Bible unequivocally condemns most of humanity to hell gives us much more accurate information about the claimant than the Bible. 1st Timothy 4:9 says, "We have our hope set on the living God, who is the savior of all men, especially those who believe." And 1st John 2:2 says, "Jesus Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."
That God condemns most of humanity to hell isn't what the Bible unequivocally and inarguably says, it's just what evangelicals want to believe, and nothing can talk them out of it. This thread asks whether it's something in childhood that causes this.
--Percy

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ochaye
Member (Idle past 5238 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 15 of 295 (523653)
09-11-2009 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Percy
09-11-2009 5:54 PM


Re: Asking the question a different way...
quote:
Yes, there's a couple recent examples. Look at If you were God, what kind of God would you be? for one.
There's nothing of that sort on the first page. It will be assumed that there is no evidence of lack of love when discussing salvation with evangelicals. The alleged "We'll scare 'em! Do you like to burn?" is a slanderous invention, for all you know.
quote:
Well, okay, if that's the way you feel
And this comes from a guy who complains of lack of love!!
quote:
but that's the uncompassionate and unloving attitude whose origins I'm inquiring about.
Is it uncompassionate and unloving to throw out the trash? Is it compassionate and loving to force decent people to live with people who are not decent? Everybody has a choice of how they are going to behave, and if they choose to go to hell, then their choice should be fully respected. Democracy, I say.

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