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Author Topic:   Questions about the living cell
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 2656 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 1 of 182 (527463)
10-01-2009 12:50 PM


Questions for evolutionists about the living cell.

1. What was the origin of the information now utilized in the transcription/translation/replication to produce protiens?

2. Since the helicase (protein) is required to open the double helix for the process mentioned above in order to produce other helicase proteins then what is the origin of the first helicase?

3. Where does nature develop chromatin outside of already existing living organisms?

I would prefer that each of you answer by stating:

1. opinion

2. fact

Thank you. This will be appreciated.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by subbie, posted 10-01-2009 1:41 PM Calypsis4 has responded
 Message 4 by mark24, posted 10-01-2009 3:45 PM Calypsis4 has responded
 Message 5 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 4:16 PM Calypsis4 has responded

    
AdminNosy
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Message 2 of 182 (527478)
10-01-2009 1:33 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Questions about the living cell thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
subbie
Member (Idle past 150 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 3 of 182 (527483)
10-01-2009 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 12:50 PM


quote:
1. What was the origin of the information now utilized in the transcription/translation/replication to produce protiens?

It's quite impossible to answer this question without knowing what you mean by "information." Hopefully your definition will be more helpful and less fluid than your definition of "kind."


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 12:50 PM Calypsis4 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 4:26 PM subbie has responded

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 2638 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 4 of 182 (527505)
10-01-2009 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 12:50 PM


Calypsis,

Answers to questions to 1-3 are I don't know.

Can you answer them based on the same format you expect us to?

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 12:50 PM Calypsis4 has responded

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 Message 7 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 4:33 PM mark24 has not yet responded

    
Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 139 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 5 of 182 (527506)
10-01-2009 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 12:50 PM


Some answers
Calypsis4 writes:

Questions for evolutionists about the living cell.

1. What was the origin of the information now utilized in the transcription/translation/replication to produce protiens?

My opinion: a slow build-up of increasingly complex chemical evolution, the nature of which we don't understand yet, and may never know for certain.

Fact: the facts are not in yet, but scientists are working on it.

2. Since the helicase (protein) is required to open the double helix for the process mentioned above in order to produce other helicase proteins then what is the origin of the first helicase?

My opinion: enzymes like helicase are catalysts, which means that they speed up chemical and physico-chemical processes. The double helix might have opened up via a different pathway before the advent of helicase, or the helicase might have been built from an RNA sequence instead of a DNA sequence, in an RNA world.

Fact: the facts are not in yet, same thing.

3. Where does nature develop chromatin outside of already existing living organisms?

My opinion: probably nowhere. It may have evolved inside living cells before they started organising their DNA in nuclei and started utilising certain proteins that happened to be of some help in it.

Fact: it wouldn't surprise me if my "probably nowhere" happened to be a fact, but I'm not sure. So, better safe than sorry: the facts are not in yet.

Thank you. This will be appreciated.

You're welcome. We're not all rotters, you see.
Nice picture, by the way.


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 12:50 PM Calypsis4 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Dr Jack, posted 10-01-2009 4:33 PM Parasomnium has responded
 Message 9 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 4:35 PM Parasomnium has responded

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 2656 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 6 of 182 (527510)
10-01-2009 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by subbie
10-01-2009 1:41 PM


It's quite impossible to answer this question without knowing what you mean by "information." Hopefully your definition will be more helpful and less fluid than your definition of "kind."

Try the information in the DNA.

I explained the creationist defintion of kind. Why need I belabor the point? We most commonly associate 'kind' with 'family' as in kingdom; phylum;class; order; family...

I will admit we are not 'married' to the Linneaus classification system but 'family' is closest.


Click to enlarge

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by subbie, posted 10-01-2009 1:41 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by subbie, posted 10-01-2009 4:36 PM Calypsis4 has responded

    
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 2656 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 7 of 182 (527513)
10-01-2009 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by mark24
10-01-2009 3:45 PM


Answers to questions to 1-3 are I don't know.

Can you answer them based on the same format you expect us to?

Yes, with no problem.

1. All genetic information was created by Almighty God within living organisms at creation. Nature did not develop it. Nature is incapable of developing it outside of already existing living organisms. Nature can only do what it is programed to do by the one who programed it; the Lord.

2. The machinery of nature was created 'as is' and almost none of it would function were the working parts not assembled and the power switched on by another force. Again, that is the Lord.

3. See the above. Nature doesn't create/make chromatin anywhere outside of existing DNA coded living organisms.

Have a nice day.


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Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3500
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


(1)
Message 8 of 182 (527514)
10-01-2009 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Parasomnium
10-01-2009 4:16 PM


Re: Some answers
Fact: it wouldn't surprise me if my "probably nowhere" happened to be a fact, but I'm not sure. So, better safe than sorry: the facts are not in yet.

Well, in fact, Bacteria do not have histones (the proteins that bind DNA into chromatin in Eukaryotes), and some Archaea have histones, but less complicated versions than the Eukarya. So, like so many other things presented as too complicated to evolve we in fact find a continuum of complexity extant in living organisms.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 4:16 PM Parasomnium has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 4:37 PM Dr Jack has responded
 Message 17 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 4:48 PM Dr Jack has responded

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 2656 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 9 of 182 (527517)
10-01-2009 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Parasomnium
10-01-2009 4:16 PM


Re: Some answers
Fact: the facts are not in yet, but scientists are working on it.

Thank you. That was an honest answer.

Question: So scientists are working on it; but why isn't nature doing it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 4:16 PM Parasomnium has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 4:50 PM Calypsis4 has responded

    
subbie
Member (Idle past 150 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 10 of 182 (527519)
10-01-2009 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 4:26 PM


quote:
Try the information in the DNA.

You can't use the word "information" in defining "information." Try again. What do you mean by "information" in the DNA?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 4:26 PM Calypsis4 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 4:46 PM subbie has not yet responded

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 2656 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 11 of 182 (527520)
10-01-2009 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Dr Jack
10-01-2009 4:33 PM


Re: Some answers
...we in fact find a continuum of complexity extant in living organisms.

Why?

Thank you for your response.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Dr Jack, posted 10-01-2009 4:33 PM Dr Jack has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Dr Jack, posted 10-01-2009 4:44 PM Calypsis4 has responded

    
Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 139 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 12 of 182 (527521)
10-01-2009 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 4:33 PM


Facts?
Calypsis4 writes:

Answers to questions to 1-3 are I don't know.

Can you answer them based on the same format you expect us to?

Yes, with no problem.

1. All genetic information was created by Almighty God within living organisms at creation. Nature did not develop it. Nature is incapable of developing it outside of already existing living organisms. Nature can only do what it is programed to do by the one who programed it; the Lord.

2. The machinery of nature was created 'as is' and almost none of it would function were the working parts not assembled and the power switched on by another force. Again, that is the Lord.

3. See the above. Nature doesn't create/make chromatin anywhere outside of existing DNA coded living organisms.

That's not quite what mark24 asked. He asked you to answer in the same format you expect of us. It seems you only gave us your opinions. Can you also provide some facts?


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 4:33 PM Calypsis4 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 4:57 PM Parasomnium has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 150 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 13 of 182 (527522)
10-01-2009 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 4:33 PM


Do you consider those answers facts or opinions?

On what evidence do you base those answers?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 4:33 PM Calypsis4 has not yet responded

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3500
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 14 of 182 (527523)
10-01-2009 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 4:37 PM


Re: Some answers
Why?

Why what?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 4:37 PM Calypsis4 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 4:47 PM Dr Jack has responded

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 2656 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 15 of 182 (527524)
10-01-2009 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by subbie
10-01-2009 4:36 PM


You can't use the word "information" in defining "information." Try again. What do you mean by "information" in the DNA?

ACTG or U as may be the case as it is found in DNA in such a fashion as to produce proteins essential for life.

Furthermore, what was the origin of the tiny machinery that was necessary to produce the first cells and where does/did nature make such tools/machinery?

I would kindly suggest you watch this short video clip before answering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41_Ne5mS2ls&feature=related

Thank you for your responses.

The problem:

Evolutionist: "I am going to make a sledge hammer"
Friend: "With what?"
Evolutionist: "With a machine that makes hammers"
Friend: "Where will you get such a machine?"
Evolutionist: "I will make one"
Friend: "With what?"
Evolutionist: "With hammers"


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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