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Author Topic:   Species/Kinds (for Peg...and others)
Huntard
Member (Idle past 187 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 1 of 425 (539278)
12-14-2009 3:37 PM


This thread is meant to be a conituation of the excellent discussion I've had with Peg in the Help in teaching 11-12 Year olds (RE (Religious Education) in the UK) Thread.

I copied my last reply from that thread here:

Huntard writes:

Peg writes:

you may have a point on that depending on what a 'species' actually is. Have we made the correct determination of what a 'species' is? I dont know.


We were talking about kinds though, not species.

What i said earlier is that the boundary between "kinds" should be drawn at the point where fertilization ceases to occur because in Genesis, a 'kind' was mentioned along with 'go forth and muliply'

Then cats and lions are a different kind, since they cannot "go forth and multiply".

as far as i'm aware, the basic meaning of a "species" is a sort, a kind or a variety.

No, not really. Like I said every "variation" of dog is of the same species.

But then in biologic terminology they apply a species to any group of interfertile animals that have one or more distinctive characteristics. So really, a moggy is the same species as a lion because they have one or more distinct characteristics, yes?

No. That's not how species is determined. The one I personally like is "a group opf organisms that live in a certain area and breed together and have fertile offspring". Bear in mind there are always exceptions, since nature is never either black or white. But we're not talking about species, we're talking about kinds.

but if we take it back to hybridization, some cats of different varieties can be hybridized, but there is a complete inability of man to hybridize with the ape family...therefore apes and man cannot be from the same 'kind'.

Than neither can the common housecat be of the same kind as the lion, since they are completely unable to hyberdize with eachother. As are ostriches and chickens.

We may look similar and have similar characteristics, but those characteristics do not mean we are from the same species so the biologic terminology of what a species is cannot be 100% accurate either.

Humans are apes of a different species as other apes. No one has said otherwise.

it would seem that chromosomes play a role in successful reproduction.

Genetic compatibility, like Wounded King said, yes.

If you looked at the link re hybridized cats, they show how cats with a certain number of chromosomes are not compatible with cats of a different number. But the point is that even though they have different numbers of chromosomes, they are still cats.

But, according to your own definition, not all are the same kind of cats.

What I'd like to focus on here is how kinds are defined (according to Peg, they must be interfertile). The current definition however, means that common housecats and lions are not of the same kind, as they aren't interfertile.

So, Peg, would you like to change your definition, or was there more then one cat kind on the ark?


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminModulous, posted 12-14-2009 6:13 PM Huntard has responded
 Message 5 by Peg, posted 12-16-2009 2:55 AM Huntard has responded
 Message 17 by ICANT, posted 12-16-2009 2:35 PM Huntard has responded
 Message 239 by lyx2no, posted 01-01-2010 9:02 AM Huntard has not yet responded

    
AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 2 of 425 (539295)
12-14-2009 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Huntard
12-14-2009 3:37 PM


I am course glad to see issues being put into a new thread, so I'm inclined to promote this despite not being entirely happy with the title (I can't put my finger on exactly why).

Anyway - where would you like this? Bible Study or Biological Evolution (or somewhere else?)

Edited by AdminModulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Huntard, posted 12-14-2009 3:37 PM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Huntard, posted 12-15-2009 2:46 AM AdminModulous has acknowledged this reply

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 187 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 3 of 425 (539320)
12-15-2009 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminModulous
12-14-2009 6:13 PM


Hmm, yes, it's a bit difficult to place this. I guess "Miscellaneous Topics in Creation/Evolution", then?


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminModulous, posted 12-14-2009 6:13 PM AdminModulous has acknowledged this reply

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12557
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 4 of 425 (539341)
12-15-2009 7:28 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Species/Kinds (for Peg...and others) thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2822 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 5 of 425 (539455)
12-16-2009 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Huntard
12-14-2009 3:37 PM


Huntard writes:

What I'd like to focus on here is how kinds are defined (according to Peg, they must be interfertile). The current definition however, means that common housecats and lions are not of the same kind, as they aren't interfertile.

So, Peg, would you like to change your definition, or was there more then one cat kind on the ark?

Yes, it seems you are right and in looking into this further I realise that, in regard to cats, i did not take into consideration that Genesis diferentiates between the 'domestic' and 'wild' animals.

Genesis 1:24-25 "And God went on to say: “Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to its kind.”

therefore Genesis is once again seen to be in agreeance with what we see in regards to kinds.

a house cat and a lion certainly cannot breed and hybridize as you've pionted out. Wild cats of different varieties can though, and domestic cats of different varieties also can...this would imply that they are 2 different kinds...one domestic kind and one wild kind of cat.

and thanks for pointing that out...its always good to be corrected when the correction makes the bible account more clear.

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Huntard, posted 12-14-2009 3:37 PM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Meldinoor, posted 12-16-2009 3:00 AM Peg has responded
 Message 9 by Huntard, posted 12-16-2009 4:44 AM Peg has responded
 Message 10 by Dr Jack, posted 12-16-2009 5:55 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 2700 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 6 of 425 (539458)
12-16-2009 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Peg
12-16-2009 2:55 AM


One little detail
Except that wild cats can hybridize with domestic cats. Looks like the genesis account got that one wrong.

Respectfully,

-Meldinoor


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Peg, posted 12-16-2009 2:55 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Peg, posted 12-16-2009 4:01 AM Meldinoor has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2822 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 7 of 425 (539461)
12-16-2009 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Meldinoor
12-16-2009 3:00 AM


Re: One little detail
Melindoor writes:

Except that wild cats can hybridize with domestic cats. Looks like the genesis account got that one wrong.

which ones?

I searched and the information I found was the house cats cannot be cross bred with lions as Huntard said.

Which wild cats did you find that can?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Meldinoor, posted 12-16-2009 3:00 AM Meldinoor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Meldinoor, posted 12-16-2009 4:05 AM Peg has responded

    
Meldinoor
Member (Idle past 2700 days)
Posts: 400
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 02-16-2009


Message 8 of 425 (539462)
12-16-2009 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Peg
12-16-2009 4:01 AM


Re: One little detail
Peg writes:

Which wild cats did you find that can?

The "Wild Cat".

Hybrids

Respectfully,

-Meldinoor


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Peg, posted 12-16-2009 4:01 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Peg, posted 12-16-2009 6:19 AM Meldinoor has responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 187 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 9 of 425 (539467)
12-16-2009 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Peg
12-16-2009 2:55 AM


I'll leave the "wild cat" thing between you and Meldinoor alone for now. Perhaps I'll comment later.

Yes, it seems you are right and in looking into this further I realise that, in regard to cats, i did not take into consideration that Genesis diferentiates between the 'domestic' and 'wild' animals.

Ok... Then what about ostriches and finches, for example. They're both birds, both wild animals, and aren't interfertile. Were there more "wild kinds" of birds as well? Also, I don't think all wild cats can hyverdize with eachother, what's the explanation for that one? Lynxes and jaguars for example, don't think they are interfertile.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Peg, posted 12-16-2009 2:55 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Peg, posted 12-16-2009 6:30 AM Huntard has responded

    
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 10 of 425 (539473)
12-16-2009 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Peg
12-16-2009 2:55 AM


I refer you to my previous post on this The Kind: Comedy Gold discussing the silliness that equating kind with interbreeding leads to according to Creationism's finest bariminologists

Wild cats of different varieties can though, and domestic cats of different varieties also can...this would imply that they are 2 different kinds...one domestic kind and one wild kind of cat.

Ha ha ha! So wild and domestic can't interbreed? Dogs and wolves? Domestic Cats and the Wild Cat? Lab rats and wild rats? Domestic goats and mountain goats? Horse and Zebra? The list trots on and on and on.

Edited by Mr Jack, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Peg, posted 12-16-2009 2:55 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 2822 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 11 of 425 (539476)
12-16-2009 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Meldinoor
12-16-2009 4:05 AM


Re: One little detail
thanks for the links melindoor

however, we were specifically refering to the crossbreeding of lions and domestic cats

can it be stated with certainty that 'wild cats' were not from domestic cats that have become feral?

If these two can cross breed, then perhaps they are the same 'kind'


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Meldinoor, posted 12-16-2009 4:05 AM Meldinoor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by caffeine, posted 12-16-2009 6:56 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 18 by Meldinoor, posted 12-16-2009 3:01 PM Peg has not yet responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2822 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 12 of 425 (539477)
12-16-2009 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Huntard
12-16-2009 4:44 AM


Huntard writes:

Ok... Then what about ostriches and finches, for example. They're both birds, both wild animals, and aren't interfertile.

It is clearly stated that many bird species were created, not just one wild and one domestic.

Genesis 1:21 And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind.

winged creatures were obviously made in great variety and in different 'kinds' so the fact that we have ostraches and chickens and pelicans and finches etc also shows that genesis is in harmony with what we see.

Huntard writes:

Also, I don't think all wild cats can hyverdize with eachother, what's the explanation for that one? Lynxes and jaguars for example, don't think they are interfertile.

as was mentioned in the other thread that chromosomes play a role in fertilization success...inbreeding can cause problems for humans and im sure it causes the same problems for animals. Why some can mate and others cant does not prove that new species are being created.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Huntard, posted 12-16-2009 4:44 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Huntard, posted 12-16-2009 7:07 AM Peg has responded
 Message 15 by Dr Jack, posted 12-16-2009 7:09 AM Peg has responded
 Message 16 by bluescat48, posted 12-16-2009 11:37 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 123 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 12-22-2009 5:01 AM Peg has responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1473
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 13 of 425 (539479)
12-16-2009 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Peg
12-16-2009 6:19 AM


Re: One little detail
Cheetahs can crossbreed with neither lions nor domestic cats, however, so there must be more than one kind of wild cat, under this definition.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Peg, posted 12-16-2009 6:19 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 187 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 14 of 425 (539482)
12-16-2009 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Peg
12-16-2009 6:30 AM


Peg writes:

winged creatures were obviously made in great variety and in different 'kinds' so the fact that we have ostraches and chickens and pelicans and finches etc also shows that genesis is in harmony with what we see.


It's also in harmony with what evolution predicts.

as was mentioned in the other thread that chromosomes play a role in fertilization success...inbreeding can cause problems for humans and im sure it causes the same problems for animals. Why some can mate and others cant does not prove that new species are being created.

That's not the argument I am making though. I'm asking you for a good definition of kind. You said kinds are interfertile. This poses a problem, because many species which you put in one kind are not interfertile. I'm trying to get a workable definition of kind here.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Peg, posted 12-16-2009 6:30 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Peg, posted 12-17-2009 4:56 AM Huntard has responded

    
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 15 of 425 (539483)
12-16-2009 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Peg
12-16-2009 6:30 AM


inbreeding can cause problems for humans and im sure it causes the same problems for animals.

Yes, it does. Which is yet another reason why the Ark story is silly. According to you every human on earth traces their entire genetic lineage to a handful of people 4000 years ago, as does the entire variety of life on earth. Every individual "wild cat" comes from just two individuals. Think about it. Not only did this miraculous pair somehow manage astounding evolution producing dozens of radically different species that mysteriously seperated around the globe but also somehow managed to avoid any harmful effects of inbreeding.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Peg, posted 12-16-2009 6:30 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Peg, posted 12-17-2009 5:10 AM Dr Jack has responded

  
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