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Author Topic:   Amino Acid Dating
faith24
Junior Member (Idle past 943 days)
Posts: 27
Joined: 09-10-2010


Message 1 of 34 (580700)
09-10-2010 6:43 PM


I'm not too familiar with this method of dating, however, it has to do with the constant change called racemization. Racemization change over time due to temperature. Can somebody please explain how this method is use to determine the age of fossils? Here is an article that shows a racemization chart.

http://grisda.org/origins/12008.htm

So it seems that's these changes makes this method useless. How would you explain to someone that say "since the change of this constant is exactly what allows the elapsed time to be determined." Is this true? And how do they know?

Edited by faith24, : No reason given.


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Message 2 of 34 (580704)
09-10-2010 7:08 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Amino Acid Dating thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 34 (580706)
09-10-2010 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by faith24
09-10-2010 6:43 PM


Dating isn't done by any single method, but by the confluence of several methods - stratiography, radioisotope ratios in the fossil or matrix, amino acid dating, and so on.

Also the fossil and its matrix will reveal signs of high temperatures, changes in pH, and so on, because those will have effects in addition to simply changing the rate of amino acid isomerization.


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subbie
Member (Idle past 205 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 4 of 34 (580707)
09-10-2010 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
09-10-2010 7:24 PM


Are you saying that when dating something, multiple methods are used on one artifact? Or are you saying that multiple methods are used in different circumstances, but not necessarily on one particular piece?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


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Coyote
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Message 5 of 34 (580708)
09-10-2010 7:30 PM


A quick search of Google shows that the majority of articles on the first page of a search for "amino acid racemization" are either old or from creationist sources.

One of the early proponents was Jeff Bada. Bada's early work using racemization on California Indian skeletons was subsequently shown to be in error (e.g., Taylor 1983)*.

I wouldn't trust this technique too much if it is now being pushed by creationists.

* Taylor, R.E., et al., Major Revisions in the Pleistocene Age Assignments for North American Human Skeletons by C-14 Accelerator Mass Spectrometry: None Older Than 11,000 C-14 Years B.P. American Antiquity, Vol. 50, No. 1, 1983, pp. 136-140.

Edited by Coyote, : Format


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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AZPaul3
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Posts: 3428
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Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 6 of 34 (580709)
09-10-2010 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by faith24
09-10-2010 6:43 PM


Don't do it!
Dating amino acids is a risky business and hardly ever results in a satisfying conclusion. Amino Acids are very sensitive and have a tendency to take everything out of context almost to the point of schizophrenia. The best you could hope for in dating an Amino Acid is to end up in one of those 20-question situations where both of you get angry and mean.

Find someone with a long-term responsible job (shows commitment and responsible behavior) and an avocation (a hobby) that is both enjoyable and not expensive.

Don't date the Aminos. Nothing good could ever come from it.


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faith24
Junior Member (Idle past 943 days)
Posts: 27
Joined: 09-10-2010


Message 7 of 34 (580712)
09-10-2010 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by AZPaul3
09-10-2010 7:40 PM


Re: Don't do it!
I see. Thanks for clarifying that to me. Can you please basically explain the contamination process that it go through? What does it mean when people say "how do you know the fossils aren't contaminated"? Thank you.
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subbie
Member (Idle past 205 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 8 of 34 (580715)
09-10-2010 8:17 PM



Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


  
faith24
Junior Member (Idle past 943 days)
Posts: 27
Joined: 09-10-2010


Message 9 of 34 (580716)
09-10-2010 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Coyote
09-10-2010 7:30 PM


I heard that there are other method which overlap this one - Amino Acid Racemization? Do you know the relationship between this one and why it must depend on other one, such as C-14?

Edited by faith24, : No reason given.


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 10 of 34 (580729)
09-10-2010 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by faith24
09-10-2010 8:29 PM


Do you know the relationship between this one and why it must depend on other one, such as C-14?

If you want to test the reliability of a dating method, naturally you want to test it on objects of a known date. In the case of racemization, that would involve testing it on objects which have been dated historically (for example a book which is known to have been published in a particular year); or against objects which have been dated by dendrochronology; or against objects which have been carbon-dated. For the tests to be meaningful, the dating methods you're testing it against must be reliable.


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faith24
Junior Member (Idle past 943 days)
Posts: 27
Joined: 09-10-2010


Message 11 of 34 (580732)
09-10-2010 9:16 PM


Amino Acid dating was use by Jeff Bada to date the California Skeleton led to in error back then. Does anybody know why they were in error? Here is a short article discussing about it:

http://links.jstor.org/pss/280327

Edited by faith24, : No reason given.

Edited by faith24, : No reason given.


    
faith24
Junior Member (Idle past 943 days)
Posts: 27
Joined: 09-10-2010


Message 12 of 34 (580735)
09-10-2010 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dr Adequate
09-10-2010 9:13 PM


quote:
If you want to test the reliability of a dating method, naturally you want to test it on objects of a known date. In the case of racemization, that would involve testing it on objects which have been dated historically (for example a book which is known to have been published in a particular year); or against objects which have been dated by dendrochronology; or against objects which have been carbon-dated. For the tests to be meaningful, the dating methods you're testing it against must be reliable.

So that mean racemization is dependent on other methods that can be reliable. How does that solve the overlapping that are in the AAR testing itself within the error bound?


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 13 of 34 (580749)
09-10-2010 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by faith24
09-10-2010 9:25 PM


How does that solve the overlapping that are in the AAR testing itself within the error bound?

I'm afraid I don't understand the question.


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faith24
Junior Member (Idle past 943 days)
Posts: 27
Joined: 09-10-2010


Message 14 of 34 (580754)
09-10-2010 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dr Adequate
09-10-2010 10:06 PM


quote:
How does that solve the overlapping that are in the AAR testing itself within the error bound?

It's ok forget it. =)


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faith24
Junior Member (Idle past 943 days)
Posts: 27
Joined: 09-10-2010


Message 15 of 34 (580756)
09-10-2010 10:33 PM


Can somebody please basically tell me why Jeff Bada made an error in his methodology for dating California skeletons using Accelerator Mass Spectrometry (AMS) back in 1983? He was the guy that came with a new way of dating fossils - Amino Acid dating. Here is the article:

http://www.nature.com/...journal/v312/n5993/pdf/312442a0.pdf

Edited by faith24, : No reason given.


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