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Author Topic:   Evolution is True Because Life Needs It
Invader Scooch
Junior Member (Idle past 1913 days)
Posts: 11
From: Infiltrating Earth
Joined: 12-17-2011


Message 1 of 188 (644454)
12-17-2011 2:36 AM


This is my first post, so just to give a little background on myself, I am a freshman in College, touching basics, but interested in education, Geology, and Marine sciences. I have just completed a Physical Geology course.

I have long been steeped into the debate of Evolution vs. Creation. I live in an area of the country where it is not hard to have said debate. Needless to say, it has generally invaded my teenage years.

I have a naturalist for a grandmother, so my love for the biological and geological sciences drives everyday routine, where it be a neat bug on the window or a cool fossil I found in a parking lot.

I love science and consider myself a enthusiast at marine biology and oceanography (especially sharks), Geology and Entomology, with a basic grasp of most other sciences.

I am not perfect, and neither will my argument be, so please be intelligent with your post.

For eons this debate has turned into a circus of people shouting at people with no understanding. To a lot of people I have debated, it is just a game. However, I have pulled myself out of that style and have done my homework. Here I present my first argument for why there is evolution.

The answer to the above statement is simply because life needs it.

To elaborate, I must point out a phenomenon that our universe is irrefutably wrapped in, change. Right now, as I am typing this topic, my breathing is producing more CO2 in the room I am in. It mixes and interacts with other gases in the room (obviously in a minute way, unless something big is about to happen). As I press the keys on my keyboard, dead skin cells are falling off and minutely changing the weight of the key. The paint on said keyboard is slowly, microscopically wearing off.

We can go bigger. In my fish tank, the denizens of the tank are causing the tank to slowly become either more alkaline or acidic, making it necessary for me to change the water sometime this month. On the street outside, there is most likely a bug eating another bug, causing a change in both the victim and the victee's body as the victim appeases the victee's body metabolism; juices in the arthropod's stomach prepare to digest the hapless prey. Every day, the world is not the same as it was yesterday. Zillions of organisms are born, and zillions die. Continents slowly move around on the mantle, bumping and swaying, and maybe even causing an earthquake or two. As each day goes by, the sea is engorged by melting ice from glaciers and ice sheets, as well as depleted by the sun's rays. Out in space, stars and planets are constantly swirling in the cosmos, who knows when one might explode or collide.

The point? The universe has one constant factor that affects all things in it, and that is change. Delta. Triangle. And life is no different.

If we go by the Creation model, all life was just plopped down as it was with no mechanism to adhere to the change, no way to counteract its effects. Evolution provides this mechanism, provides the way to prosperity.

Life is always changing, minutely to the human eye, but just as if I decided to splurge on candy bars, I wouldn't be fat instantly (though I'd sure feel that way), but over time, if I were to lead the sedentary lifestyle of the common couch potato, in a few weeks I would cause the bathroom scale to cry. The same is true for life.

Edited by Admin, : Change title, was "A State of Change"

Edited by Invader Scooch, : More detail in my background.

Edited by Invader Scooch, : Tidying.

Edited by AdminPhat, : Title change per request


My tallest, I will fill the Earth with snacks!

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 12-17-2011 8:45 AM Invader Scooch has responded
 Message 5 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-18-2011 3:16 AM Invader Scooch has not yet responded
 Message 6 by DWIII, posted 12-18-2011 3:20 AM Invader Scooch has not yet responded
 Message 7 by Pressie, posted 12-18-2011 7:20 AM Invader Scooch has not yet responded
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 12-18-2011 8:44 AM Invader Scooch has responded
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2011 10:02 AM Invader Scooch has responded
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2012 8:08 AM Invader Scooch has not yet responded

    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1803
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 188 (644455)
12-17-2011 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Invader Scooch
12-17-2011 2:36 AM


Because Life Needs It
Welcome to EvC. It certainly looks as if you enjoy writing. Try and edit your basic argument just a wee bit. Do you like the title?

I think that this would fit rather well in Creation/Evolution Miscellany

At any rate, we welcome the opportunity to discuss this stuff with you.

Invader Scooch writes:

I live in an area of the country where it is not hard to have said debate. Needless to say, it has generally invaded my teenage years. I love science and consider myself a enthusiast at marine biology and oceanography, Geology and Entomology, with a basic grasp of most other sciences.


What got you interested in science? If you hang around here long, you will have the opportunity to learn some things from some of our forum members who also love discussing these things.

What classes are you taking in college?

Edit your opening post a bit and allow spacing for paragraphs and easier readability. I will promote you once its tidy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Invader Scooch, posted 12-17-2011 2:36 AM Invader Scooch has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Invader Scooch, posted 12-18-2011 1:37 AM AdminPhat has not yet responded

    
Invader Scooch
Junior Member (Idle past 1913 days)
Posts: 11
From: Infiltrating Earth
Joined: 12-17-2011


Message 3 of 188 (644456)
12-18-2011 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
12-17-2011 8:45 AM


Re: Because Life Needs It
Hi there, thanks for looking over my topic.

I am a tad bit iffy about the title change.....I am trying to make the title inquisitive so a wider audience will look at the article, however I could see the title Because Life Needs It working, if you feel its better.

I have tidied up the paragraphs and gone into a little more detail about my background, however I am not sure about where to tidy up the argument. It has been swimming in my noggin for the past few years.

Thank you for looking, Scooch.


My tallest, I will fill the Earth with snacks!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 12-17-2011 8:45 AM AdminPhat has not yet responded

    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1803
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 4 of 188 (644458)
12-18-2011 2:22 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Evolution is True Because Life Needs It thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 5 of 188 (644460)
12-18-2011 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Invader Scooch
12-17-2011 2:36 AM


The answer to the above statement is simply because life needs it.

Things don't happen just because they're useful.

If we go by the Creation model, all life was just plopped down as it was with no mechanism to adhere to the change, no way to counteract its effects.

Yes well, a creationist could argue ... wait ... I'll get my creationist hat ...

Puts on creationist hat, looks like a dick.

... where was I, oh yes, creationism. A creationist would point out how many species, and indeed genera and families and so on, have in fact gone extinct (and done so, even according to non-loons, without surviving descendants) since God magicked the world into existence six thousand years ago, and that God doesn't give a cuss about this 'cos he's going to destroy the world anyway when Armageddon comes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Invader Scooch, posted 12-17-2011 2:36 AM Invader Scooch has not yet responded

  
DWIII
Member (Idle past 700 days)
Posts: 72
From: United States
Joined: 06-30-2011


Message 6 of 188 (644461)
12-18-2011 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Invader Scooch
12-17-2011 2:36 AM


Welcome to EvC, Invader Scooch!

Invader Scooch writes:


The point? The universe has one constant factor that affects all things in it, and that is change. Delta. Triangle. And life is no different.

If we go by the Creation model, all life was just plopped down as it was with no mechanism to adhere to the change, no way to counteract its effects. Evolution provides this mechanism, provides the way to prosperity.

First of all, there is no creation model, at least no consistent falsifiable model that has been put forth by the creationist camp.

Even so, you should realize that most creationists do not argue complete stasis. They will, by large, accept what they disingenuously call "microevolution", even at extremely large rates of change, provided that the total amount of change does not violate the boundaries of their beloved preconceived platonic categories which they call "kinds".


Life is always changing, minutely to the human eye, but just as if I decided to splurge on candy bars, I wouldn't be fat instantly (though I'd sure feel that way), but over time, if I were to lead the sedentary lifestyle of the common couch potato, in a few weeks I would cause the bathroom scale to cry. The same is true for life.

Of course, but let's not confuse all biological change with the model of biological evolution (change from one generation to the next, as opposed to changes in one organism over its lifetime).


DWIII

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Invader Scooch, posted 12-17-2011 2:36 AM Invader Scooch has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1714
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 7 of 188 (644463)
12-18-2011 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Invader Scooch
12-17-2011 2:36 AM


Oh, I don't know about this. For me, the Theory of Evolution is true because ALL the empirical evidence we have uncovered so far undoubtably shows that the Theory of Evolution is broadly accurate.

The only people who don't want to accept that are people who use fancy "arguments", based on books written thousands of years ago. They never show any verifiable, empirical evidence for their vastly different viewpoints.

I don't even need fancy arguments, I use empirical, verifiable evidence.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : Changed a few sentences

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Invader Scooch, posted 12-17-2011 2:36 AM Invader Scooch has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by foreveryoung, posted 01-05-2012 5:57 PM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15680
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 8 of 188 (644470)
12-18-2011 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Invader Scooch
12-17-2011 2:36 AM


Hi Invader Scooch, welcome to EvC!

What struck me most about your post is that it contains no indication that you understand evolution yourself. I'm not saying you don't, but I can't tell from that post, and the view that the universe abhors stasis therefore life must change seems simplistic.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Invader Scooch, posted 12-17-2011 2:36 AM Invader Scooch has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Invader Scooch, posted 12-18-2011 6:52 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Invader Scooch
Junior Member (Idle past 1913 days)
Posts: 11
From: Infiltrating Earth
Joined: 12-17-2011


Message 9 of 188 (644527)
12-18-2011 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Percy
12-18-2011 8:44 AM


A general reply
I will not tout my knowledge on evolution, other than to say that I am well versed and future topics of mine with show that.

And to Percy, it does not matter whether the arguement is simple or complex, it only matters that it serves its purpose and the general populace can understand it. Starting from the simple beginning is a good thing.

To Dr. Adequate (reminds me of a Cat Scratch episode) Thinking on your comment reminds me of Carntosaurus. If we look at the tiny limbs of Carntosaurus, even small for a large therapod, we can hardly see them as useful. Yet they were a stepping stone, going toward the purpose of survival. Needless to say, there are not many Carntosaurus remains. Not sure if I just elaborated on your comment but I am not too sure, other than the paragraph above, I really understand your point on where the change I was refering to and usefullness you were refering to coincide with one another.

And on Creationist, I had a Creation-nut as a Chemistry Teacher last year. He was an excellent class-staller, but he was generally the complete polar opposite of my arguement. Creationist are not stupid, they just fail to know what science is.

I hope that clears up some confusion, and doesn't create more.
THANKS FOR COMMENTING! KEEP 'EM COMIN!


My tallest, I will fill the Earth with snacks!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 12-18-2011 8:44 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11665
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 10 of 188 (644717)
12-20-2011 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Invader Scooch
12-17-2011 2:36 AM


Here I present my first argument for why there is evolution.

The answer to the above statement is simply because life needs it.

To elaborate, I must point out a phenomenon that our universe is irrefutably wrapped in, change.

Indeed.

But many creationists do accept that species, er kinds, are not static. They'll distinguish between micro- and macro- evolution, and move their position to being that, while kinds can change, one kind cannot become another, i.e. speciation.

The point? The universe has one constant factor that affects all things in it, and that is change. Delta. Triangle. And life is no different.

If we go by the Creation model, all life was just plopped down as it was with no mechanism to adhere to the change, no way to counteract its effects. Evolution provides this mechanism, provides the way to prosperity

There's not much in the way of "the Creation model", but even then, they do not have their kinds as static and unchanging.

Life is always changing, minutely to the human eye, but just as if I decided to splurge on candy bars, I wouldn't be fat instantly (though I'd sure feel that way), but over time, if I were to lead the sedentary lifestyle of the common couch potato, in a few weeks I would cause the bathroom scale to cry. The same is true for life.

Sorta, just don't conflate individuals with populations. I'm sure you know that individuals don't evolve.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Invader Scooch, posted 12-17-2011 2:36 AM Invader Scooch has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Invader Scooch, posted 12-21-2011 3:19 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Invader Scooch
Junior Member (Idle past 1913 days)
Posts: 11
From: Infiltrating Earth
Joined: 12-17-2011


Message 11 of 188 (644925)
12-21-2011 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2011 10:02 AM


While I do agree there is no one model for Creation, I still need a Creationist to reply. All the responses have generally been Evolution peoples.

If you are on the Creation side of things, please respond.

And to Dr. Adequate on the usefullness of change, it serves its purpose.

And the Micro-Macro evolution debate is cute until you realize that Macro Evolution is just eons of Micro-Evolution added together.

Edited by Invader Scooch, : No reason given.


My tallest, I will fill the Earth with snacks!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2011 10:02 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-21-2011 4:01 PM Invader Scooch has not yet responded
 Message 13 by RAZD, posted 12-22-2011 11:58 PM Invader Scooch has not yet responded
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 12-24-2011 5:59 AM Invader Scooch has not yet responded
 Message 15 by Portillo, posted 01-03-2012 7:02 AM Invader Scooch has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11665
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 12 of 188 (644928)
12-21-2011 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Invader Scooch
12-21-2011 3:19 PM


While I do agree there is no one model for Creation, I still need a Creationist to reply. All the responses have generally been Evolution peoples.
If you are on the Creation side of things, please respond.

Okay, I've just converted. I'm a Creationist now (with a capital C - do you consider theistic evolutionists to be creationists? - small c).

So what's up?

Kinds aren't static and unchanging, microevolution is acceptable.

And the Micro-Macro evolution debate is cute until you realize that Macro Evolution is just eons of Micro-Evolution added together.

You can't just expect a Creationist to accept that as a given.

Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Invader Scooch, posted 12-21-2011 3:19 PM Invader Scooch has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18858
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 13 of 188 (645076)
12-22-2011 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Invader Scooch
12-21-2011 3:19 PM


What evolution is
Hi Invader Scooch, and welcome to the fray.

And to Dr. Adequate on the usefullness of change, it serves its purpose.

But it is not an active element. It seems you are trying to imbue change with a purpose or some goal. And evolution is more than just change.

Evolution is the change in frequency of hereditary traits within breeding populations from generation to generation in response to ecological opportunities.

And the Micro-Macro evolution debate is cute until you realize that Macro Evolution is just eons of Micro-Evolution added together.

Except that there is one small, but essential, difference between microevolution and macroevolution as used by biologists: microevolution occurs within all breeding populations, while macroevolution involves the division of populations into isolated populations and the subsequent divergence in those populations.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/index.shtml

quote:
The Definition:
Biological evolution, simply put, is descent with modification. This definition encompasses small-scale evolution (changes in gene frequency in a population from one generation to the next) and large-scale evolution (the descent of different species from a common ancestor over many generations). Evolution helps us to understand the history of life.

http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/...ciation/speciation.html

quote:
We begin with two working definitions of biological evolution, which capture these two facets of genetics and differences among life forms. Then we will ask what is a species, and how does a species arise?

  • Definition 1:

    Changes in the genetic composition of a population with the passage of each generation

  • Definition 2:

    The gradual change of living things from one form into another over the course of time, the origin of species and lineages by descent of living forms from ancestral forms, and the generation of diversity

Note that the first definition emphasizes genetic change. It commonly is referred to as microevolution. The second definition emphasizes the appearance of new, physically distinct life forms that can be grouped with similar appearing life forms in a taxonomic hierarchy. It commonly is referred to as macroevolution.


Without speciation there would be only one species.

If you are on the Creation side of things, please respond.

Unfortunately, it has been a little slow around here due to the low level of Creationist members.

Message 1: For eons this debate has turned into a circus of people shouting at people with no understanding. To a lot of people I have debated, it is just a game. However, I have pulled myself out of that style and have done my homework. Here I present my first argument for why there is evolution.

The answer to the above statement is simply because life needs it.

This is a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy. It is also anthropomorphizing life - life doesn't "need" rather it just is.

Whether or nor life continues depends of the relative fitness of the living organisms to survive and reproduce within their ecological contexts.

Enjoy

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Edited by Zen Deist, : withing?

Edited by Zen Deist, : ...


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Invader Scooch, posted 12-21-2011 3:19 PM Invader Scooch has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15680
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 14 of 188 (645187)
12-24-2011 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Invader Scooch
12-21-2011 3:19 PM


Seeking Creationists
Invader Scooch writes:

While I do agree there is no one model for Creation, I still need a Creationist to reply. All the responses have generally been Evolution peoples.

That evolution is inevitable because change is an inherent property of the universe may not be of interest to the creationists currently active here. If you'd like to debate some creationists here are a few active threads I can suggest:

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Invader Scooch, posted 12-21-2011 3:19 PM Invader Scooch has not yet responded

    
Portillo
Member (Idle past 1658 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 15 of 188 (646102)
01-03-2012 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Invader Scooch
12-21-2011 3:19 PM


quote:
While I do agree there is no one model for Creation, I still need a Creationist to reply. All the responses have generally been Evolution peoples.

If you are on the Creation side of things, please respond.


Does evolution occur? Of course it does if by evolution you mean change. 2 prominent examples of evolution in action, which all the scientific textbooks cite, is the selective breeding of domestic animals or breeding of plants. Dog breeding gives us a wide variety of dogs. Another example is birds who migrate to an island, inbreed and adapt to their new environment. Migration, mutation, inbreeding, natural selection, and selective breeding, will produce organisms that are different from a similar bird on the mainland. If thats what you mean by evolution, then evolution is certainly true, it does happen.

Evolution in this sense isnt controversial. Natural selection was actually discovered by a creationist. The question however is the big questions. How do you get birds in the first place, how do you get dogs, how do you get humans. How do you start from a bacterial cell and over billions of years, get complex plants and animals, through the operation of purposeless, directionless natural processes. Thats whats supposed to happen, and what a skeptic wants to know is is that really true. Do we know how such a thing can happen?

"Evolution" turns out to mean just about anything that changes. Evolution means dog breeding, evolution means variation of the beaks of finches, evolution means how we get tall, short, black and white people, evolution means progress, evolution means selective breeding through the intelligent and creative power of human beings. The word evolution can actually distract attention from the main issue through the method of fog dispersion. For example, if you ask how do you get from a bacteria to a human over billions of years. The answer will be, look at the breeding and variety of domestic dogs. Look at the finches, they changed. Evolution then means everything from the smallest variation to the grand metaphysical story of how we got plants and animals in the first place.

Natural science asks what is the most plausible material mechanism of how we got here and the answer is the force that created variation within finches living on the Galapagos Islands. The flaw in the whole scenario is that the change and variation within a fundamentally stable species has been extrapolated to explain how you get finches and birds in the first place. How you get animals in the first place. Its a wild extrapolation and thats the answer they give you.

Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.


And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Invader Scooch, posted 12-21-2011 3:19 PM Invader Scooch has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 01-03-2012 7:43 AM Portillo has responded
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