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Author | Topic: The Price of Gas | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
Continuing the discussion started by hooah in Message 187 of Quick Questions, Short Answers - No Debate.
quote: Love your enemies!
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2316 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
The price of gasoline in my country is currently at about 1,80 Euros, which would be about 2,40 Dollars.... PER LITER.
So don't whine to me about "unpayable gas prices!". Not that I have a car... but still...
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
True and I totally agree about Euro gas prices (I spent a few years in Deutschland). However, isn't it also true that Europe has higher standards for fuel efficiency? Plus, there are far, FAR more public transport options.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given."Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
quote: NoNukes writes: Gas station operators try to make sure that they always bring in enough revenue to buy the next shipment of gas, but also have to be wary of charging even a tiny bit more than their competitor across the street. They have to speculate on a daily basis as to how much they are going to be charged for the next shipment. I'm not sure where they all get their info on what is happening to the price of gas, but they have to be very reactive to that information. Jon writes: Perhaps this is all hooey, but there was a news story on TV a long while ago which claimed that only a few cents of each gallon actually goes to the gas station. I have no idea how this number was calculated, and it sounds pretty suspect to me. But perhaps it has some merit... and some meaning! Coyote writes: And if you look at the tax statement on the pump, many times that figure goes to the various governments. Omni writes: Well. Contending with nearby competitors is definitely a factor, but the larger driving force, I think, is the speculative nature of the global oil futures market which shifts with the slightest change in political and economic winds. Speculation in oil markets has increased dramatically in recent years as investors turned away from unstable bond and equity markets to energy markets driven by an apparently insatiable demand. My understanding is that most gas stations are franchise operations, and the operator does not technically "own" the gas until the actual moment of retail sale--the cost to the operator for gas currently in his station tanks changes after delivery, a truly frightening way to have to operate a business. So we don't have the dynamics of a perfect market, where the retailer sells at a margin above a cost fixed at the time of wholesale purchase. Incidentally, oil markets are perhaps the most manipulated of all commodities: oil producing nations seek to keep prices high by reducing supply at the source; refiners do the same thing by shuttering refineries when demand drops and their returns are "suboptimal". I'm sure you've noticed how high prices in recent years have at times lowered demand, leading to lower prices--until the producers and/or the refiners restrict supply, and prices rise again despite the continuing low demand. At present there is a near glut of oil, globally. But because the market is a speculative commodity market, Iran's threats to block the Straits, however empty, have caused a price per barrel to refiners spike; prior to that, American refiners had shuttered many refineries for "scheduled maintenance", so now prices already manipulated upward by refiners have moved higher on fairly thin fears of reduced supply. It's a mug's game, like most energy markets. You may recall that part of the Enron scandal included strong evidence that "routine maintenance" of electrical plants was being scheduled in a conspiratorial manner to boost profits by orchestrating supply shortages, especially in California markets. The only countries with cheap gas these days are places like Bahrain, Venezuela, etc., who have production in excess of domestic need and keep prices low to buy political stability at home. Compared to most industrialized nations, our gas is cheap, even at nearly $5/gallon. Most of Europe pays close to $10/gallon, largely due to taxes, though in part due to our greater access to domestic production. A good argument can be made that European prices better reflect the actual cost to society of burning carbon fuels (pollution and consequent health costs, the economic impact of huge import payments, etc.). Many American economists have urged higher gas taxes for decades--to discourage profligate American consumption, to encourage conservation, to improve our import-export balance, etc. If I had to give a "short answer to quick questions" I'd say that gas prices change daily, mostly upward, because energy corporations own the entire GOP and a fair slice of the Democratic Party. Huntard writes: The price of gasoline in my country is currently at about 1,80 Euros, which would be about 2,40 Dollars.... PER LITER. So don't whine to me about "unpayable gas prices!". Not that I have a car... but still... Hooah writes: True and I totally agree about Euro gas prices (I spent a few years in Deutschland). However, isn't it also true that Europe has higher standards for fuel efficiency? Plus, there are far, FAR more public transport options. *sniff*...I smell gas! Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : synopsis
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Hopefully the US will establish a policy through a mixture of replacement cost accounting and vastly increased taxes to gradually but relatively rapidly increase US gasoline and diesel consumer prices as one tool to reshape the US and move us away from individual car ownership and widely spread communities towards public transportation and a return to neighborhoods.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined:
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I've heard this argument before and fail to understand how, initially at least, it would harm anyone but lower income people. You say "raise gas prices then it will force people to re-think how they drive". Ok, what if those people are already doing what they can? You going to force them to finance a $50,000 hybrid/electric vehicle with the credit and down payment they don't have? Raising fuel prices isn't going to harm congress, rich people or ANY government officials. We can already see that sort of attitude with the gov't types: "oh, you can't afford it? Work harder. You're not working hard enough" or "Well, I can afford it, why can't you?". Why should the lower class be the first and hardest hit?
"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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Jon Inactive Member |
I've heard this argument before and fail to understand how, initially at least, it would harm anyone but lower income people. It would 'hurt' everyone. Imagine all those poor people staying home more often because getting anywhere is a pain in the ass.
You going to force them to finance a $50,000 hybrid/electric vehicle with the credit and down payment they don't have? Raising fuel prices isn't going to harm congress, rich people or ANY government officials. If you read jar's post carefully, you see that the idea isn't just to get away from using gas-powered cars; the idea is to completely reformat society from how it is now, where people are required to commute into a large central city on a daily basis, to something more small-term, where people live in smaller communities with most of the work within walking, biking, or city bus distance.
Why should the lower class be the first and hardest hit? So long as the upper class remains in power with the resources to weather any hits, the lower class will always be the first and hardest hit. But we're all open to suggestions. What do you propose? JonLove your enemies!
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Note that I said we need to do more than just raise gasoline and diesel fuel prices and also do it gradually and yet relatively quickly.
Just raising fuel prices will simply harm the poorest, so we need to totally restructure the US. In this case 'relatively quickly' would likely be a 50 year period; gradual will allow the citizens to adjust to the changing restructuring. In general, the US has been on an expansionist phase for about a half century, beginning with the 'Levittowns' and the Interstate Highway system, the creation of 'suburbia' and the advent of the 'Harrundale Mall'. It would take at least as long to consolidate and return back to an Urban and Rural standard. We need to move away from suburbia and back to a supportable structure, one where the car is really not a major factor, where most everything anyone needs is available within walking distance, where jobs are local, where most of the land is used for productive purposes instead of roads, parking lots and as a foundation for a single family home. We need to urbanize our population and then interconnect the urban areas with high speed rail networks, and provide real mass transit within the urban areas. We need to look back to Europe and learn how to actually be civilized. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
It would 'hurt' everyone. Imagine all those poor people staying home more often because getting anywhere is a pain in the ass. Yes, the poor people. Upper middle and upper class? Not so much. Is this going to hurt the person who has maybe $100 left over on payday or the person who has $500 leftover on payday? You really think even doubling the price of gas will stop someone who makes 6 figures from doing anything? It most certainly WILL stop someone who makes anything under 6 figures.
If you read jar's post carefully, you see that the idea isn't just to get away from using gas-powered cars; the idea is to completely reformat society from how it is now, where people are required to commute into a large central city on a daily basis, to something more small-term, where people live in smaller communities with most of the work within walking, biking, or city bus distance. And what a wonderful world that would be. I just don't see how skyrocketing fuel prices will do anything more than disenfranchise the working class and the poor even more and make it so they can't do a fucking thing outside of walking distance in the mean time. Forget about even going to work because they can't afford it and there is not other means of transport for them yet.
So long as the upper class remains in power with the resources to weather any hits, the lower class will always be the first and hardest hit. Then what sense does it make to intentionally hurt them?
But we're all open to suggestions. What do you propose? For starters, expand research into making alternative renewable energy available and affordable for every class of people."Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Note that I said we need to do more than just raise gasoline and diesel fuel prices and also do it gradually and yet relatively quickly. Just raising fuel prices will simply harm the poorest, so we need to totally restructure the US. In this case 'relatively quickly' would likely be a 50 year period; gradual will allow the citizens to adjust to the changing restructuring. Ok, that I can mostly agree with. I read your subtitle and that is what jumped out at me. So long as these are done at a relatively equal pace where the ability for a majority of people to transform their lifestyle is available, it sounds like a plan. It's that I see this sort of thing not quite happening and fuel prices will just go up and the "haves" will say "adapt or die". I've seen this sort of mentality already with some people who want to transfer to enhanced transportation: raise gas prices and force everyone off of oil."Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
It may not happen, but in that case life will get very bad very quickly for many, many people.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Jon Inactive Member
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Gasoline prices are far too low.
All we have to do is look at consumption to see that the price of gas has, despite everyone's bitching, done nothing to alter behavior and consumption trends. Motor Vehicle Fuel Consumption and Travel in the U.S., 19602006 And no one's advocating an overnight switch to $15/gallon gas.Love your enemies!
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: Hopefully the US will establish a policy through a mixture of replacement cost accounting and vastly increased taxes to gradually but relatively rapidly increase US gasoline and diesel consumer prices as one tool to reshape the US and move us away from individual car ownership and widely spread communities towards public transportation and a return to neighborhoods. I get the logic. I just don't see how our current political system can agree on anything resembling this sort of consensus. How would we even find one politician willing to stick their neck out this far? Even if we did, how would the rival political party agree? Finally, how would the public become convinced?
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Honestly, I very much doubt that the public will be convinced until the shit really hits the fan and a great fall.
If we continue down the same old path then is there any reason to expect reaching a new destination?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Jon Inactive Member
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How would we even find one politician willing to stick their neck out this far? Why would they? Curbing oil consumption would cut into their income. They're better off if we keep pumpin'. JonLove your enemies!
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