Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,581 Year: 2,838/9,624 Month: 683/1,588 Week: 89/229 Day: 61/28 Hour: 0/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Origin of viruses
Kiddo
Junior Member (Idle past 4221 days)
Posts: 4
From: India
Joined: 08-10-2012


Message 1 of 24 (670755)
08-18-2012 2:20 PM


How did viruses come into existence???

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 08-18-2012 4:39 PM Kiddo has replied
 Message 5 by Dr Jack, posted 08-18-2012 6:17 PM Kiddo has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12993
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 2 of 24 (670756)
08-18-2012 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kiddo
08-18-2012 2:20 PM


This is just a question rather than a debate topic, but if there is a creationist position on this issue then I'm sure a debate will emerge without going to the trouble of framing the issue more concisely, so I'm going to promote this as is.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Kiddo, posted 08-18-2012 2:20 PM Kiddo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-18-2012 5:28 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied
 Message 17 by Kiddo, posted 08-20-2012 12:27 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12993
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 3 of 24 (670758)
08-18-2012 4:40 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Origin of viruses thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 4 of 24 (670760)
08-18-2012 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
08-18-2012 4:39 PM


This is just a question rather than a debate topic, but if there is a creationist position on this issue ...
What do you mean, if? There always is. It's always the same one. God made them by magic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 08-18-2012 4:39 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by foreveryoung, posted 08-18-2012 11:20 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.2


(2)
Message 5 of 24 (670762)
08-18-2012 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kiddo
08-18-2012 2:20 PM


No-one knows, nor is it clear that they share a common origin. There is some reason to believe some viruses predate cellular life but since viruses leave no fossils we have no direct evidence to work with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Kiddo, posted 08-18-2012 2:20 PM Kiddo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2012 12:02 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 572 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 6 of 24 (670777)
08-18-2012 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dr Adequate
08-18-2012 5:28 PM


What do you mean, if? There always is. It's always the same one. God made them by magic.
How is it magic if the personality that brought the laws of physics into existence and is the source of all energy is able to manipulate those laws and energies to his own ends?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-18-2012 5:28 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2012 6:14 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 18 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-20-2012 12:39 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 7 of 24 (670780)
08-19-2012 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dr Jack
08-18-2012 6:17 PM


RNA world
Hi Mr Jack
No-one knows, nor is it clear that they share a common origin. There is some reason to believe some viruses predate cellular life ...
IIRC, there was some work on virus RNA\DNA that showed homologies between viruses in all branches of cellular life, indication a shared common ancestor.
Indeed there is the hypothesis that they are left overs from the RNA world before DNA and cellular live evolved, that they represent a more primitive form of life between pre-biotic chemical evolution and cellular life.
... but since viruses leave no fossils we have no direct evidence to work with.
Which leaves us with genetic evidence and (informed?) speculation.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Dr Jack, posted 08-18-2012 6:17 PM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Dr Jack, posted 08-19-2012 4:33 AM RAZD has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.2


(1)
Message 8 of 24 (670785)
08-19-2012 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
08-19-2012 12:02 AM


Re: RNA world
Hi RAZD,
I'm going by Koonin et al (2006) The ancient Virus World and evolution of cells (open access). Which states:
quote:
Comparative genomics provides no evidence of a monophyletic origin of all viruses. Many virus groups simply share no common genes, effectively, ruling out any conventional notion of common origin. ... For example, most of the viruses of hyperthermophilic crenarchaea have literally no genes in common with any other viruses, whereas RNA viruses share with DNA viruses and plasmids that replicate via the rolling circle mechanism only extremely distant domains in their respective replication proteins.
Which leaves us with genetic evidence and (informed?) speculation.
Absolutely, but let's not confuse coherent hypothesis with directly evidenced theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2012 12:02 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2012 5:19 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 24 (670786)
08-19-2012 5:19 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Dr Jack
08-19-2012 4:33 AM


Re: RNA world
Hey Mr Jack,
I'm going by Koonin et al (2006) The ancient Virus World and evolution of cells (open access). Which states:
Cool thanks.
btw -- do you know if viruses have ever been responsible for beneficial gene sequences? or do we only get deleterious and then neutralized ones.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Dr Jack, posted 08-19-2012 4:33 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Dr Jack, posted 08-19-2012 5:38 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.2


(1)
Message 10 of 24 (670787)
08-19-2012 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
08-19-2012 5:19 AM


Re: RNA world
Hi RAZD,
btw -- do you know if viruses have ever been responsible for beneficial gene sequences? or do we only get deleterious and then neutralized ones.
Yes. Genes vital for placental formation are derived from retroviruses. Hang on, I'll dig out a source...
Black et al (2010) Endogenous Retroviruses in Trophoblast Differentiation and Placental Development
Edited by Mr Jack, : Added reference

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2012 5:19 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 11 of 24 (670789)
08-19-2012 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by foreveryoung
08-18-2012 11:20 PM


How is it magic if the personality that brought the laws of physics into existence and is the source of all energy is able to manipulate those laws and energies to his own ends?
Because that's what magic is.
noun
[mass noun]
the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces:
suddenly, as if by magic, the doors start to open

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by foreveryoung, posted 08-18-2012 11:20 PM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2012 6:18 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 15 by Percy, posted 08-20-2012 8:20 AM Tangle has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 12 of 24 (670790)
08-19-2012 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tangle
08-19-2012 6:14 AM


Hi Tangle,
(foreveryoung): How is it magic if the personality that brought the laws of physics into existence and is the source of all energy is able to manipulate those laws and energies to his own ends?
Because that's what magic is.
And if they did it all at the formation of the universe ... how would you know?
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : splg

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2012 6:14 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by onifre, posted 08-19-2012 5:33 PM RAZD has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 13 of 24 (670814)
08-19-2012 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by RAZD
08-19-2012 6:18 AM


And if they did it all at the formation of the universe
They?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2012 6:18 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2012 7:43 PM onifre has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 14 of 24 (670817)
08-19-2012 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by onifre
08-19-2012 5:33 PM


Hi onifre
They?
The accepted collective term for he/she/it/they these days.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by onifre, posted 08-19-2012 5:33 PM onifre has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 15 of 24 (670842)
08-20-2012 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tangle
08-19-2012 6:14 AM


That's not magic! That's just God being God.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2012 6:14 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024