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Author Topic:   Why science is losing funding
tesla
Member (Idle past 1439 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 1 of 17 (679126)
11-12-2012 11:11 AM


I stumbled across a video on BBC in which a woman exploring the math of theoretical physics offered that space funding is being lost and that the interest of the common people has waned concerning astrophysics and its majesty of wonder.

I would like to point out that a lot of scientists treat average nonscientists as less than valuable to their work. That creates an alienation of the common man, in which science is offering answers no one can understand without years of college, and are unwilling or unable to show where it is interesting and fun, but instead stress the amount of work needed to come to any understanding.

What do you believe are the main reasons for the lack of NASA funding? Do you think arrogant scientists have played any role in diminished funding, or the lack of interest of the common people?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20273641


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by NoNukes, posted 11-12-2012 9:14 PM tesla has responded
 Message 5 by Genomicus, posted 11-12-2012 11:08 PM tesla has responded
 Message 13 by Taq, posted 11-13-2012 11:11 AM tesla has responded

  
Admin
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Message 2 of 17 (679128)
11-12-2012 2:59 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Why science is losing funding thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 286 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 3 of 17 (679157)
11-12-2012 5:36 PM


in which science is offering answers no one can understand without years of college, and are unwilling or unable to show where it is interesting and fun, but instead stress the amount of work needed to come to any understanding.

And then become angered with journalists who report it wrong. This is something I've been thinking a bit about recently as well. However, I don't see it as being due to "elitist scientists" as much as the general public not really giving a shit about science. Science is boring to most Americans. Hell, half the country will tell you that science is bullshit and "the devil".


"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

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NoNukes
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Posts: 9438
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 4 of 17 (679193)
11-12-2012 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by tesla
11-12-2012 11:11 AM


Because you have used the word arrogant, it seems that you have concluded that at least some science are failing to recognize possible valuable contributions from non-scientists.

Can you cite some examples? I understand that non-scientists want to contribute and that in some fields amateurs do contribute. But I'd like to be convinced that valuable contributions are being missed due to ignoring non-scientists.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by tesla, posted 11-12-2012 11:11 AM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by tesla, posted 11-13-2012 12:35 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Genomicus
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Joined: 02-15-2012
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 5 of 17 (679212)
11-12-2012 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by tesla
11-12-2012 11:11 AM


The main reason for lack of NASA funding is that the government has other priorities - the military, you know, and other items. According to this, about 50% of non-necessary spending is used up on "defense." I'm pretty sure that can be cut down substantially and sent over to NASA. I'm currently frustrated that we haven't landed a man/woman on Mars yet, when we should have done it a decade after the moon landing.

Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.


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Minnemooseus
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From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
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Message 6 of 17 (679214)
11-12-2012 11:33 PM


OK, once again plugging one of my old topics
To fund or not to fund - Are some science projects worth pursuing?

Moose


    
Genomicus
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Posts: 813
Joined: 02-15-2012
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 7 of 17 (679215)
11-12-2012 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Genomicus
11-12-2012 11:08 PM


We Stopped Dreaming
For anyone interested:


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tesla
Member (Idle past 1439 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 8 of 17 (679229)
11-13-2012 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by hooah212002
11-12-2012 5:36 PM


And then become angered with journalists who report it wrong. This is something I've been thinking a bit about recently as well. However, I don't see it as being due to "elitist scientists" as much as the general public not really giving a shit about science. Science is boring to most Americans. Hell, half the country will tell you that science is bullshit and "the devil".

It's not boring to me. I wonder why such a shift though. When I was growing up science was fun and exciting. But recently, not so much. I think the battle of science and religion has damaged many peoples trust in the science community that appears to be on an agenda to destroy peopleís religion.

But what other reasons could have caused the lack of interest?


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

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tesla
Member (Idle past 1439 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 9 of 17 (679234)
11-13-2012 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by NoNukes
11-12-2012 9:14 PM


Because you have used the word arrogant, it seems that you have concluded that at least some science are failing to recognize possible valuable contributions from non-scientists.

I don't think that's really the issue...it's not the ability of the ignorant to contribute, but rather that their curiosity be allowed to flourish. which could lead to greater contribution.

As an example, letís examine my feelings toward math. If I understand it, and can properly perform it, I find it cool, and even fun. But when I lack the understanding, and a 30 minute equation turns into 2 hours, it's frustrating and exhausting. It's difficult to find proper tutors or capable students to study with. That is part of the reason why I've returned here.

I think curiosity is a powerful driving force, and when given enough prodding to flourish it can lead to great discovery, and great scientists, and great interest. What will it take though, a change in public approach, a change in the educational system, or a shift in societyís mainstream media, orÖwhat?


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by NoNukes, posted 11-12-2012 9:14 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by NoNukes, posted 11-13-2012 11:45 AM tesla has responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1439 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 10 of 17 (679235)
11-13-2012 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Genomicus
11-12-2012 11:08 PM


The main reason for lack of NASA funding is that the government has other priorities - the military, you know, and other items. According to this, about 50% of non-necessary spending is used up on "defense." I'm pretty sure that can be cut down substantially and sent over to NASA. I'm currently frustrated that we haven't landed a man/woman on Mars yet, when we should have done it a decade after the moon landing.

Hmm. I wonder if that is because of public desires of government spending, or government desires not in line with the American people. I know many that wish the defense budget would be slashed in half. But the great fear there is the economic impact on society.

Maybe thatís why the private sector is building to address public access to space. Itís one way to gain public support is to include them in participation of the gains of science. Like being in space and experiencing zero g.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

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 Message 5 by Genomicus, posted 11-12-2012 11:08 PM Genomicus has not yet responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1201 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 11 of 17 (679244)
11-13-2012 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Genomicus
11-12-2012 11:08 PM


The main reason for lack of NASA funding is that the government has other priorities - the military, you know, and other items. According to this, about 50% of non-necessary spending is used up on "defense." I'm pretty sure that can be cut down substantially and sent over to NASA. I'm currently frustrated that we haven't landed a man/woman on Mars yet, when we should have done it a decade after the moon landing.

Since the 1960's sexual revolution the nation has been divided into two parts.
One is the side which kills illegimate babies with abortion, and then goes on to work and marry.
The other side opts for the nbenefits of Welfare in an environment that is shameless and enabling.

The $600 Billion dollars in the 2012 Budget for Welfare matches the $600 Billiobn dollars spent for Military Defense against a growing and diverse enemy.

Welfare is estimated to reach a cost of $10.5 Trillion dollars over the next decade.
Add the cost of Criminal Justuice necessary because 70% of all vilent crime and social problems in America are caused by people raisedbySingle Mothers, and one can see the hand writing on the wall,...

... or not??

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box.


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Admin
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Posts: 12428
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 12 of 17 (679256)
11-13-2012 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by kofh2u
11-13-2012 1:43 AM


Hi Kofh2u,

You're not even pretending to try to be on-topic anymore. I am going to remove your posting permissions in this forum, the Is It Science? forum.

I'm afraid this is just too much. The next post you make anywhere at EvC Forum that is off-topic or that contains only bald assertions with no supporting evidence, I will suspend you permanently.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Taq
Member
Posts: 6068
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 13 of 17 (679315)
11-13-2012 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tesla
11-12-2012 11:11 AM


I would like to point out that a lot of scientists treat average nonscientists as less than valuable to their work. That creates an alienation of the common man, in which science is offering answers no one can understand without years of college, and are unwilling or unable to show where it is interesting and fun, but instead stress the amount of work needed to come to any understanding.

Would you agree that the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is a massive step forward in physics research? Well, guess what? We could have built a more powerful machine here in the US, and it would have been finished more than a decade ago. Construction had already begun. It was called the Superconducting Super Collider:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_Super_Collider

What happened? Politicians do what politicians do and made it look like wasted money. Conservatives ridiculed the scientists and did everything they could to trash the program, and it worked.

The question is why does this work? Why are conservatives able to consistently attack science and win?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by tesla, posted 11-12-2012 11:11 AM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 14 of 17 (679317)
11-13-2012 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Taq
11-13-2012 11:11 AM


the answer is simple.
The question is why does this work? Why are conservatives able to consistently attack science and win?

The answer is simple; learning is hard work as was pointed out in the Message 1.

tesla writes:

I would like to point out that a lot of scientists treat average nonscientists as less than valuable to their work. That creates an alienation of the common man, in which science is offering answers no one can understand without years of college, and are unwilling or unable to show where it is interesting and fun, but instead stress the amount of work needed to come to any understanding.

Well the average non-scientist IS less valuable to their work and what science is doing DOES require years of college (or other specialized learning) to even understand.

It's not arrogance to point that out, it is simply a statement of fact.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9438
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 15 of 17 (679330)
11-13-2012 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by tesla
11-13-2012 12:35 AM


As an example, letís examine my feelings toward math. If I understand it, and can properly perform it, I find it cool, and even fun. But when I lack the understanding, and a 30 minute equation turns into 2 hours, it's frustrating and exhausting. It's difficult to find proper tutors or capable students to study with. That is part of the reason why I've returned here.

So would arrogance be measured by whether a scientist would or would not take the time to explain the math? I'm curious as to what you would like to change.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by tesla, posted 11-13-2012 12:35 AM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by tesla, posted 11-13-2012 6:46 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
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