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Author Topic:   The Science that is wrong if YEC beliefs are right
Tangle
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Message 1 of 18 (680066)
11-16-2012 6:50 AM


There's been a couple of topics lately where a YEC (Faith) has been arguing the whole YEC creationist position.

This for me is incomprehensible - I'm left in a mental flap of just how extreme this position is. To me it means a rejection of almost the entirety of modern science. Great swathes of physics, biology, geology, archaeology, astronomy, anthropology and even maths have to be wrong for them to be right.

Perhaps we could have a shot at putting a list together of stuff that no longer works if the YEC world view is right. (Maybe it's been done before, if so, please point me at it.)


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
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Message 2 of 18 (680068)
11-17-2012 1:04 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the The Science that is wrong if YEC beliefs are right thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
ICANT
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Message 3 of 18 (680070)
11-17-2012 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
11-16-2012 6:50 AM


Right or Wrong
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

Perhaps we could have a shot at putting a list together of stuff that no longer works if the YEC world view is right. (Maybe it's been done before, if so, please point me at it.)

The list would be a lot shorter if you listed the things that was right with science if the YEC worldview is right.

I can't think of any science about creation that would be correct if they are correct.

I can't think of anything the Bible records about creation that would be correct if they are right.

There are other religious views than those held by YEC'S, as hard as it is for some here to accept.

This message from a beliver of the literal text of the Bible.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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nwr
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Message 4 of 18 (680078)
11-17-2012 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
11-16-2012 6:50 AM


... and even maths have to be wrong for them to be right.

I'm not at all sure what mathematics you are referring to. Off hand, I cannot think of anything biblical that contradicts mathematics.

For the rest - yes, creationism contradicts far more of science that the YEC creationists will admit. But then, they deeply into self-delusion.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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jar
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Message 5 of 18 (680090)
11-17-2012 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by nwr
11-17-2012 2:39 PM


He is probably talking about 1 Kings:

1Kings writes:

23 And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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nwr
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Message 6 of 18 (680097)
11-17-2012 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
11-17-2012 3:25 PM


He is probably talking about 1 Kings

Yes, I guessed that might be it.

I don't see that as a problem with mathematics. It is about measurement.

I never did see that as a problem in the Bible. Unless that molten sea is exactly circular, it could even be true. The measurement across might be at a place where it is longer than the average. And even if the molten sea is exactly circular, this is still a reasonably approximation for inexact measurement.

Edited by nwr, : No reason given.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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dwise1
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Message 7 of 18 (680099)
11-17-2012 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
11-17-2012 3:25 PM


From which we derive that π (pi) is equal to 3, exactly. None of that "irrational number" nonsense for true believers! Of course, apologists try to come up with excuses, such as that the circumference was not taken from the brim, but rather from a different part of its "fluted" shape, but those excuses are non-biblical.

As for myself, I would assume that the human writer(s) of 1 Kings had no knowledge of the evil secular notion of fractions. Or that Hebrew, "the language that God spoke", was incapable of expressing fractions, a rather odd deficiency for a "Divine language".

There's a story about Indiana passing a law that set pi to an arbitrary (and wrong) value, presaging the rash of creationist laws that we see. Here are two of those stories:

From The C Users Journal, Vol.11, No.2, Feb 1993: "Real-Number Approximation for Real Programmers" by Mark Gingrich,
Sidebar "Baseball, Mom and Rational Pi", page 41.

quote:
But despite these breakthroughs, mathematical truth soon after experienced an amusing episode of American democracy in action. In 1897, the state of Indiana's House of Representatives voted 67 to 0, proclaiming [pi] equal to 16/5, exactly! The bill was proposed by a physician and amateur mathematician, a Dr. Edwin Goodwin, who claimed this 'discovery.' And being a loyal Hoosier, he offered Indiana free use of the result -- all others would have to pay royalties! Fortunately, last-minute lobbying by an alert mathematics professor kept the bill from making it through the Indiana Senate.

And from Wikipedia's article on Pi:

quote:
In 1897, an amateur mathematician attempted to persuade the Indiana legislature to pass the Indiana Pi Bill, which described a method to square the circle, and contained text which assumes various incorrect values of π, including 3.2. The bill is notorious as an attempt to establish scientific truth by legislative fiat. The bill was passed by the Indiana House of Representatives, but rejected by the Senate.

Source:
Arndt & Haenel 2006, pp. 211212
Posamentier & Lehmann 2004, pp. 3637
Hallerberg, Arthur (May 1977). "Indiana's squared circle". Mathematics Magazine 50 (3): 136140.
(visit the Wikipedia page in order to iron out the bibliography)



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NoNukes
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Message 8 of 18 (680104)
11-17-2012 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by dwise1
11-17-2012 4:06 PM


From which we derive that π (pi) is equal to 3, exactly.

I think that is a silly reading of the verses in question. Is the cup exactly circular? Are the measurements precise? When I read the verse I see that all of the measurements are expressed to one significant figure only. To that level of accuracy, the circumference of a perfectly circular cup having a diameter of 10 would be expressed as 30 and not 31.45926535 or similar.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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jar
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(1)
Message 9 of 18 (680105)
11-17-2012 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by dwise1
11-17-2012 4:06 PM


Pretty silly stuff there
Oh, I imagine that the writers of 1 Kings certainly had a knowledge of fractions as well as of how to calculate the circumference of a circle. But they were not writing a math text but rather telling a tale.

If anything it is a clear example that many Biblical critics have no sense of humor.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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dwise1
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Message 10 of 18 (680107)
11-17-2012 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
11-17-2012 4:27 PM


Re: Pretty silly stuff there
If anything it is a clear example that many Biblical critics have no sense of humor.

Au contraire! I find it all highly amusing.

I think you two need to step back and re-examine just exactly who is demonstrating a singular lack of a sense of humor here.


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jar
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From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 11 of 18 (680111)
11-17-2012 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by dwise1
11-17-2012 4:41 PM


Re: Pretty silly stuff there
Okay, if you find it all highly amusing I have no problem with that.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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NoNukes
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Message 12 of 18 (680126)
11-17-2012 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by dwise1
11-17-2012 4:41 PM


Re: Pretty silly stuff there
...just who is demonstrating a singular lack of humor

I'm sure the humor is there, but perhaps it is in too subtle a form. It's not always easy to spot sarcasm in blog posts.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by dwise1, posted 11-17-2012 4:41 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
Tangle
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Message 13 of 18 (680163)
11-18-2012 5:59 AM


I was thinking particularly of those branches of science that would be completely unusable.

Anything to do with palaeontology, all of geology, dendrochronology, any archaeology and anthropology older than say 4,500 years.

Evolution of course but also the lumps of genetics dealing with mutation, variation (eg bottlenecks) and molecular clocks. Population dynamics.

Presumably all of astronomy and cosmology would have to go - except those bits dealing with what we can see today - which takes out most of big physics.

The physics side is interesting because presumably it would have knock on effects into technologies. It would be interesting to think of technologies that couldn't work if the earth was only 6,000 old.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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ProtoTypical
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(1)
Message 14 of 18 (680172)
11-18-2012 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
11-16-2012 6:50 AM


Short list
Perhaps we could have a shot at putting a list together of stuff that no longer works if the YEC world view is right.

My brain.


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nwr
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Posts: 5519
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
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(1)
Message 15 of 18 (680175)
11-18-2012 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Tangle
11-18-2012 5:59 AM


It would be interesting to think of technologies that couldn't work if the earth was only 6,000 old.

There would be a problem with much of what NASA does. Those rockets would bump into the solid dome over the earth. And if they managed to penetrate that, they would run into the waters above the firmament.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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