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Author Topic:   What is missing from the theory of evolution
dayalanand roy
Junior Member (Idle past 937 days)
Posts: 18
Joined: 11-27-2012


Message 1 of 68 (682594)
12-04-2012 12:36 AM


Honorable members of this forum
Everybody knows that the living systems are too complicated, but they must have been formed stepwise through evolution. However, I perceive that the existing evolutionary theories are not sufficient to fully explain this phenomenon. But no person with a sane head on his shoulders can support the Intelligent Design theory as an alternative. However, if I do, I can do it in a different way. I can see all the natural forces leading to evolution as part of an Intelligent Design and the entire Nature as an Intelligent Creator.

However, I suppose that in addition to the known mechanisms, some very crucial other mechanisms might be operating to guide the wheel of evolution. I have always thought that random mutations followed by natural selection are too slow a process to create such complicated biological phenomenon in the given time period as we see. But it is wonderful to see in Prof Thornton’s work that even a single mutation can have such a large effect on evolution, thus highly accelerating the process.

I have an intuition that there might be some ‘yet unknown, unseen power’ that helps organisms to evolve the most favorable way. Or else, could there be some ‘pre-destined course’ that evolutionary mechanisms tend to follow? Or, are these two things ‘linked together’.

In my childhood, whenever I spilled some water on a floor, I would closely observe the course it took while flowing down. I still do it. It always flows in the direction of slope, but never takes exactly the same course every time and never a straight one. When I try to analyze the event, I find that primarily, it is the slope of the floor, aided by the fine structure of the surface, that determines the course (the ‘pre-destined course’?) of the water-flow. The major force working behind this factor is the unseen gravity (the ‘the unknown, unseen power’). These are the two principal but ‘linked together’ factors. However, the properties of water and the force exerted by air and some other unknown factors are also affecting the course of water. But these factors are working as the ‘wheels’ for movement, not as the ‘power’ for movement.

I try to find an analogy between the water-flow on a surface and evolution. The evolutionary process also tends to drive species towards a common destination- better adaptability to environment, better survival and more offspring (can it be taken as a ‘pre-destined course’?). (Is evolution of cognition and consciousness of human beings a part of better adaptability to environment, or something else, I cannot understand.) But the course it takes is also never a straight one and never the same for different species. It appears to me that the hitherto known factors (mutation, natural selection etc) steering ahead the process of evolution are actually the ‘wheels’ of evolution. Is there also an invisible but quite natural ‘power’, like the gravity in case of water flow, working to drive forth the evolutionary process?
regards
Dayalanand Roy


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 12-04-2012 2:35 AM dayalanand roy has responded
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 Message 6 by nwr, posted 12-04-2012 1:24 PM dayalanand roy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 7 by kofh2u, posted 12-05-2012 10:19 AM dayalanand roy has responded

    
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Message 2 of 68 (682596)
12-04-2012 1:31 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the What is missing from the theory of evolution thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
RAZD
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Message 3 of 68 (682606)
12-04-2012 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by dayalanand roy
12-04-2012 12:36 AM


philosophical considerations
Hi again dayalanand roy,

Everybody knows that the living systems are too complicated, ...

Nope.

... but they must have been formed stepwise through evolution. However, I perceive that the existing evolutionary theories are not sufficient to fully explain this phenomenon. ...

Curiously, I have no such problem.

... But no person with a sane head on his shoulders can support the Intelligent Design theory as an alternative. However, if I do, I can do it in a different way. I can see all the natural forces leading to evolution as part of an Intelligent Design and the entire Nature as an Intelligent Creator.

The universe could have been created so that evolution would occur, just as it could have been created so that gravity would occur, leading to the universe and life as we observe it.

This is a philosophical consideration, however, not science (it's not testable).

However, I suppose that in addition to the known mechanisms, some very crucial other mechanisms might be operating to guide the wheel of evolution ...

Feel free to suggest something that can be tested.

... I have always thought that random mutations followed by natural selection are too slow a process to create such complicated biological phenomenon in the given time period as we see. ...

Again, what you think -- your opinion -- is stunningly incapable of altering reality.

... But it is wonderful to see in Prof Thornton’s work that even a single mutation can have such a large effect on evolution, thus highly accelerating the process.

And thus you contradict yourself.

When we compare the genetic changes necessary to go from shrew-like organism to elephant and the time necessary to do this with known mutation rates we find that there is an excess of time available rather than a shortage.

I have an intuition that there might be some ‘yet unknown, unseen power’ that helps organisms to evolve the most favorable way. Or else, could there be some ‘pre-destined course’ that evolutionary mechanisms tend to follow? Or, are these two things ‘linked together’.

More philosophical thinking, unless you can come up with something testable.

In my childhood, whenever I spilled some water on a floor, I would closely observe the course it took while flowing down. I still do it. It always flows in the direction of slope, but never takes exactly the same course every time and never a straight one. When I try to analyze the event, I find that primarily, it is the slope of the floor, aided by the fine structure of the surface, that determines the course (the ‘pre-destined course’?) of the water-flow. The major force working behind this factor is the unseen gravity (the ‘the unknown, unseen power’). These are the two principal but ‘linked together’ factors. However, the properties of water and the force exerted by air and some other unknown factors are also affecting the course of water. But these factors are working as the ‘wheels’ for movement, not as the ‘power’ for movement.

Surface tension is affected by chemicals in the floor, dirt, footsteps, cleaning, etc etc etc.

I have a basement that often has water flowing across it from the bulkhead steps (poorly installed) to the sump pump when it rains. I know where I can put things to stay dry, because the water flows along the same general path -- even though there may be some minor variation at the edges, they don't extend to the flow "experimenting" with reaching every square inch of the floor by taking different paths.

I try to find an analogy between the water-flow on a surface and evolution. The evolutionary process also tends to drive species towards a common destination- better adaptability to environment, better survival and more offspring (can it be taken as a ‘pre-destined course’?). ...

Post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.

... (Is evolution of cognition and consciousness of human beings a part of better adaptability to environment, ...

There is no discernible reason to think otherwise that I am aware of.

... But the course it takes is also never a straight one and never the same for different species. ...

Random mutation means not a straight course, and never the same for different species is because that would require the same random mutations.

... It appears to me that the hitherto known factors (mutation, natural selection etc) steering ahead the process of evolution are actually the ‘wheels’ of evolution. Is there also an invisible but quite natural ‘power’, like the gravity in case of water flow, working to drive forth the evolutionary process?

You are free to think this, however that does not make it true. You can believe what you want. Science, however, tests hypothesis against objective evidence to determine what is likely to be real.

Enjoy.

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Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dayalanand roy, posted 12-04-2012 12:36 AM dayalanand roy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by dayalanand roy, posted 12-12-2012 9:32 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
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Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 4 of 68 (682668)
12-04-2012 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dayalanand roy
12-04-2012 12:36 AM


Everybody knows that the living systems are too complicated,

Such is the result of a blind process like evolution. You will produce unwanted complexity with such a system instead of the effecient simplicity expected from design processes.

I have always thought that random mutations followed by natural selection are too slow a process to create such complicated biological phenomenon in the given time period as we see.

The next step is to actually demonstrate that it is too slow. However, the math really doesn't support you on this one. Let's use humans and chimps as our model here.

"Despite the many similarities found between human and chimp genomes, the researchers emphasized that important differences exist between the two species. About 35 million DNA base pairs differ between the shared portions of the two genomes, each of which, like most mammalian genomes, contains about 3 billion base pairs."
http://www.genome.gov/15515096

We also observe that each human is born with between 50 and 100 mutations, so let's go with the lower 50 number. Let's also use a constant population of 100,000 individuals, 5 million years since common ancestry, and 25 year generation time. These are probably the more conservative values for each. My calculator tells me that there were about 1 trillion, or 1E12, mutations in that time. We are only separated by 35 million mutations. That is just 0.0035% of all mutations that did occur, using this simple model. I would say that evolution is plenty fast enough to produce the divergence we see at the DNA level.

However, I suppose that in addition to the known mechanisms, some very crucial other mechanisms might be operating to guide the wheel of evolution.

What evidence do you have for this mechanism?


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RAZD
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Posts: 18242
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Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 5 of 68 (682671)
12-04-2012 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Taq
12-04-2012 12:59 PM


Hi Taq,

We also observe that each human is born with between 50 and 100 mutations, so let's go with the lower 50 number. Let's also use a constant population of 100,000 individuals, 5 million years since common ancestry, and 25 year generation time. These are probably the more conservative values for each. My calculator tells me that there were about 1 trillion, or 1E12, mutations in that time. We are only separated by 35 million mutations. That is just 0.0035% of all mutations that did occur, using this simple model. I would say that evolution is plenty fast enough to produce the divergence we see at the DNA level.

And this surplus of mutations\time to achieve the observed differences in the genomes also shows that evolution is not directed, because so much is "wasted" in the process.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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nwr
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Joined: 08-08-2005
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(3)
Message 6 of 68 (682672)
12-04-2012 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dayalanand roy
12-04-2012 12:36 AM


However, I suppose that in addition to the known mechanisms, some very crucial other mechanisms might be operating to guide the wheel of evolution.

Biological systems are chock full of homeostatic processes. And homeostatic processes are adaptive.

I would not call that "missing" - biologists are well aware of homeostasis, and it is part of the background of biology that is subsumed into evolution. However, that might be what some of the critics of evolution are missing.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1173 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 7 of 68 (682757)
12-05-2012 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by dayalanand roy
12-04-2012 12:36 AM


have an intuition that there might be some ‘yet unknown, unseen power’ that helps organisms to evolve the most favorable way. Or else, could there be some ‘pre-destined course’ that evolutionary mechanisms tend to follow? Or, are these two things ‘linked together’.

Great post!

I agree with what you say, especially that the "spirit of God, (i.e.; Gen 1:2), is actually the intricate web of the Natural Laws by which God accomplishes all his works.

In regard to what you propose, essential Direct evolution, I would agree and submit evidence to that idea in support of such a factor at work today and for the last 7 million years at least.

I am uncertain how well i might maintain an argument for a Direct Evolution beyond such time, except that the Natural Laws would have been sufficient initially, until the Unconscious mind of the life forms on the Planet began directing long term behaviors for whole species like the social animal, ants, bees, termites, mankind, etc.

Leonard Mlodinow, the best-selling author of The Drunkard’s Walk and coauthor of The Grand Design, with Stephen Hawking, gives us a startling and eye-opening examination of how the unconscious mind shapes our experience of the world.

I believe that our Collective Unconscious mind is the Good Shepherd which with "his" third eye has always been watching over humanity as individuals like you and I may come and go, augmenting and subtracting from the ever present Collective body of human thought in the Unconscious mind that is the ancient of ancients among us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dayalanand roy, posted 12-04-2012 12:36 AM dayalanand roy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Eli, posted 12-05-2012 11:19 AM kofh2u has responded
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Eli
Member (Idle past 845 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


(6)
Message 8 of 68 (682774)
12-05-2012 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by kofh2u
12-05-2012 10:19 AM


kofh2u writes:

I agree with what you say, especially that the "spirit of God, (i.e.; Gen 1:2), is actually the intricate web of the Natural Laws by which God accomplishes all his works.

Then why bother calling it "god"?

Just call it what it is : Nature.

And if you feel awe or admiration that you feel it necessary to venerate or offer appreciation to nature, then go ahead.

But why put all this extra baggage on nature that it doesn't require in order to keep doing what it is doing?

Just worship nature and shut the fuck up about trying to force particular religious claims into the framework of natural obsevances.


This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1173 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 9 of 68 (682791)
12-05-2012 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Eli
12-05-2012 11:19 AM


Then why bother calling it "god"?

Just call it what it is : Nature.

That would be wrong.
Our God is Truth which is the son of the force behind Reality.

Nature is the tool of this Force, and means by which it changes from moment to moment as the ever unfolding Reality presents itself to men.

In order for man to survive as a species, he must know the Truth, his savior from the Natural Laws of Evolution that require he adapt of become extinct.

Men must recognize this as a process that requires a religious and even ritual adherence to the lord, Truth.
They must come to recognize that Truth is their friend, and they need to form a personal relationship with Truth, because Truth has evolved as a phylogenetic entity inside their own mind.

The experiences of the whole species have accumulated over millions of years, and are stored, genetically, in our gene pool.

We are born with the Truth inside us, locked away from our conscious access to it, inside the Unconscious mind.
Our success in life and salvation as a species depends upon the Unconscious mind deeming us worthy of its attention to our present life experience.
It is with a good conscience that we have a key into that realm.

This is the source of that which is missing from our ideas about evolution.
This storehouse of Truth which men can tao and use to advance along with the Forces of Nature is the means of the Direct Evolution science already speaks of.

The technological advancements that will clone organs and implant computer chips, etc, will be the means to a marriage between man and the almighty Force behind the evolving and unfolding Reality we must bow to.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Eli, posted 12-05-2012 11:19 AM Eli has responded

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Eli
Member (Idle past 845 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


(3)
Message 10 of 68 (682796)
12-05-2012 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by kofh2u
12-05-2012 12:33 PM


"Our" God?

I'm pretty sure you are on your own there.

Everything else you posted was just lazy tatological rhetoric, vague and empty and not even rational.

Truth is not a force of nature. Nor is it necessary for man to "know truth" in order to not go extinct. There is no evolutionary law that requires having a mental abstract corrospond 100% to what is really going on in order to survive.

That is also infinitely impossible, anyway. And what you suggest means that no species should be in existence today.

Clearly you are wrong in your assumption.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by kofh2u, posted 12-05-2012 12:33 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 11 of 68 (682825)
12-05-2012 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by kofh2u
12-05-2012 10:19 AM


In regard to what you propose, essential Direct evolution, I would agree and submit evidence to that idea in support of such a factor at work today and for the last 7 million years at least.

So let's see that evidence.


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Replies to this message:
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dayalanand roy
Junior Member (Idle past 937 days)
Posts: 18
Joined: 11-27-2012


Message 12 of 68 (683618)
12-12-2012 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
12-04-2012 2:35 AM


Re: philosophical considerations
Many thanks for taking so much trouble to read my post and reply it. I am here in this forum to get connected with people like you who can shape my opinions and, if possible, suggest some clues to test them.
regards
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dayalanand roy
Junior Member (Idle past 937 days)
Posts: 18
Joined: 11-27-2012


Message 13 of 68 (683619)
12-12-2012 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by kofh2u
12-05-2012 10:19 AM


re- something missing
Thanks a lot sir. You have greatly encouraged me. regards
dayala
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jasonlang
Member (Idle past 756 days)
Posts: 51
From: Australia
Joined: 07-14-2005


Message 14 of 68 (684480)
12-17-2012 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by dayalanand roy
12-12-2012 9:51 AM


Re: re- something missing
@OP: Maybe the piece of the puzzle you're not seeing is sexual reproduction.

With asexual reproduction, you'd be relying on serial mutations or random chance gene swaps, if one organism had gene A and and another had gene B, that were good separately, but together were even better, they'd more or less have to both develop the entire other gene all over again (constantly re-inventing the wheel) to get the benefit of both. And it's true with axesual mutation / reproduction that the child's DNA will only be a couple of letters different from the parent (barring things like copying errors).

Yes, linear mutations are perhaps too slow to produce all the variations and complexity we see today within the given time-frame, but that's not taking into account the "parallel processing" that's enabled by sexual reproduction.

Different lines of inheritance can develop improvements separately, each of which is marginally better than the old version, and these can be recombined into new variants which can benefit from both sets of genes. And huge chunks of DNA can be swapped back and forth within a single generation, because of splitting and random recombination, the child's DNA with sexual reproduction will be an entirely novel sequence, not just 1 or 2 letters different from either parent as in asexual reproduction.

So, if the genome was a book, asexual reproduction would be like copying the entire book, and changing a single letter here and there, whilst sexual reproduction is like taking 2 books, splicing entire words, paragraphs and chapters together picking at random from corresponding chapters of either book (and also switching the odd letter here and there).

So, with sexual reproduction, organisms can inherit entire structures from each parent, and they get jammed together in completely novel ways. Now, this can obviously fail very badly, but it can also lead to great successes that can leapfrog the need to add letter by letter (which might lead to an evolutionary "valley" which doesn't work). The risks come with the rewards.

Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given.

Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1173 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 15 of 68 (684910)
12-19-2012 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Eli
12-05-2012 12:46 PM


KOFH2u:
Truth is our god.

ELI:

"Our" God?
I'm pretty sure you are on your own there.

Yeah...

Truth seems to be only my God in these forums as you and they other people avoid it while responding as if you honor it when what you say is posted as such.

But as a species, one that is totally dependent upon thinking for survival, the Truth is essetail to decision making.
Truth is the Grace of the Reality which the Natural Laws constructed and continue to unfold such that it is both available and can be imaged inside our head.

Truth is the savior for our species.
With out Truth man can not adapt to the environment and would go extinct sooner or later.


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