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Author Topic:   Liberals, PC Police and Big Business
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(2)
Message 1 of 91 (686394)
12-31-2012 5:19 PM


I need a break from talking about guns!
Having a converstaion the other day with what can be refered to, at least in my opinon, as the "new" Republicans today - The "I'm not a Democrat or a Republican but most of what I say or think is right leaning and a lot of the blame I place is on the left - however I like gays" Republicans - They like to use the word Libertarian a lot, but when you really get in detail about it they're not actual Libertarians. This happens a lot with friends of mine who are comics but closet Rep. It seems like they all collectively decided to call themselves Libertarians.
Anywhooo...
This dude and I, who is a comic also, were having a discussion about censorship, the PC police, and the current trend of having to publically apologize to "person or group X" for offending "nameless Americans" that has been in the news lately with people like Daniel Tosh (from Tosh.O) and his "rape comment" to Tracy Morgan for his "gay joke", even to Michael Richards and his "N-word" outburst at the Laugh Factory.
My friend said in his opinion, any one who gets offended is a "weak" person. Now I don't think I agree with that, but then again I really don't understand what "being offended" is. I guess my "line" for being offended is almost non-existent. I don't think I can get offended, so I can't fully comprehend the person when they're explaining why they are offended. Even when I see those "God Hates Fags" signs from the Westboro people, I'm not offedned at all. I just disagree with them and really don't give a shit that they exist. I've heard rape jokes, abortion jokes, homophobic jokes, racist jokes, etc., and never get offended. Mostly I just get bothered by those jokes when they're not funny and poorly constructed and the comic was just going for "shock" value rather than quality content.
But what I can agree with is, anyone who has been offended at a performance or something they saw, doesn't need to blog about it or bring it to the public just to let us all know that they personally were offended. Frankly, who cares? Furthermore, I dont think the media should blow it out of proportion and make it so that Tracy Morgan has to apologize to the entire gay community for a 3 second joke he made at a show where none of those gay people throughout America, except for the few that may have been at the show, heard him say it.
He then said it's the Liberals and the PC police that have made it impossible for comics to freely express themselves and in doing so have violated our rights to free speech.
He blames liberals for this, and here is where I disagree.
I keep hearing this a lot "The liberals are making pussies out of us." Or that the liberals are always offended and we can't say cunt or fag, or make a semi-racist joke or homophobic joke, or if you're pro-men and say anything about how women act you're being a mysoginist, etc, etc, etc.
To some extent, I agree that it's people who care about everyone's feelings - for what ever self-righteous reason that may be - that champion for those people who they feel are minorities in the fight and aim to back them up. I guess that's cool, sort of. For one thing though, I don't know if a group needs a spokesperson who isn't a member of that group.
In any case, I don't think that those people are A) All liberals. Many people from the right get behind causes that have offended and B) That they are the ones making it so that we can't say those words or make those jokes or the reason comics have to apologize.
In my opinion it comes down to money and corporate greed. It comes down to big business not wanting their sales of macaroni and cheese to go down so they force Tracy Morgan (because he's on NBC) and Daniel Tosh (because he's on Comedy Central that is owned by Viacom) to apologize.
In fact, I don't think this has anything to do with liberals or the PC police at all. I think it's the media trying to gain ratings by exploiting these stories that don't deserve any attention and big business who doesn't want to see any decrease in sales who are the actual "PC Police".
Anyone care to make a case for either side you see being the problem or the real PC Police...?
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Coyote, posted 01-01-2013 8:58 AM onifre has replied
 Message 6 by NoNukes, posted 01-01-2013 2:27 PM onifre has replied
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 01-02-2013 10:29 AM onifre has replied
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 Message 16 by subbie, posted 01-02-2013 11:28 AM onifre has replied
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 Message 40 by dronestar, posted 01-04-2013 1:07 PM onifre has replied

  
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Message 2 of 91 (686416)
01-01-2013 8:49 AM


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Coyote
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Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 3 of 91 (686417)
01-01-2013 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by onifre
12-31-2012 5:19 PM


PC
In my opinion it comes down to money and corporate greed.
I agree with you right up to this point.
The heart of PC has to be colleges and universities--take a look at the various "speech codes" that they have. And, the colleges and universities are also the province of liberals, not conservatives.
Also, this is an area that the kind of "money and corporate greed" you are referring to really can't reach.
I think in many ways big business is reacting to the PC-ness that they perceive is already out there, rather than causing it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by onifre, posted 12-31-2012 5:19 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by onifre, posted 01-01-2013 1:16 PM Coyote has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 4 of 91 (686418)
01-01-2013 9:12 AM


The way I look at it, although the language itself means nothing, the attitude behind the words does. People are affected by the language we hear (like it or not), and when you hear language that is high on emotional content, and high on strong disrespect, and low on semantic value, it will influence people to have the disrespect and the hate.
Look at the way that the right wing radio influences people... for example, Rush Limbaugh's rant against Sandra Fluke. Even though her testimony had to do with how birth control pills control cysts,and one of her friends had to get an operation that made her sterile because she could not get the pills since it wasn't covered by insurance, Rush yammered about Sandra being a slut. .. and that false idea went into the conservative consciousness. The politically incorrect language became a tool for propaganda. It also promotes bigotry against gays, blacks, Jews, Muslims, etc etc etc.
Language matters.. and while a lot of times people are too sensitive, there are good reasons for BEING that sensitive. That is because language has become a tool to promote hate.

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 5 of 91 (686431)
01-01-2013 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coyote
01-01-2013 8:58 AM


Re: PC
The heart of PC has to be colleges and universities--take a look at the various "speech codes" that they have. And, the colleges and universities are also the province of liberals, not conservatives.
I don't agree with this. I've performed at colleges and universities and they're lots of fun with barely any language restrictions. For the most part. Every now and then a gig is early, like at noon, and in a student lounge area, so we may have to watch our language there. But whenever there are restrictions it's coming from the up-tight adults that run these schools.
Professors, for the most part, that I've seen and talked to, or any "grown up" working the college, is usually a conservative, older person who is no fun at all. It's not a bunch of liberal, pot smoking professors in smoking jackets talking to the kids about Marxism - although this is what many think it's like in colleges.
I think in many ways big business is reacting to the PC-ness that they perceive is already out there, rather than causing it.
Sure, but that's something the media itself is doing. I don't think big business is tapped into the colleges trying to gauge what is or isn't PC because of what some college kids think.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 91 (686438)
01-01-2013 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by onifre
12-31-2012 5:19 PM


I agree with much of your position in the OP. I don't think believe that whining about being offended is some exclusive thing to liberals. Also, while I believe that the term PC is overused, there are indeed some things about which taking offense is a knee jerk reaction. And there may very well be a money component involved in the media taking up the offense battle.
But I did want to point out a couple of things I take some issue with.
But what I can agree with is, anyone who has been offended at a performance or something they saw, doesn't need to blog about it or bring it to the public just to let us all know that they personally were offended.
This I don't get. If I thought your performance was bad for any reason, including crossing some line, why shouldn't I tell people. If audiences need to be more thick skinned, perhaps comics need to toughen up as well.
Even when I see those "God Hates Fags" signs from the Westboro people, I'm not offended at all.
These guys cross lines when they picket funerals and yell at grieving families. Otherwise, their signs just identify who the nuts are. You should not be offended by something said by someone you have no respect for.
It comes down to big business not wanting their sales of macaroni and cheese to go down so they force Tracy Morgan (because he's on NBC) and Daniel Tosh (because he's on Comedy Central that is owned by Viacom) to apologize.
Yes. That's true to a great extent. But given that their mission is to make money off the sales of macaroni and cheese, why should you expect anything different?
I'm all for giving comics a pretty wide latitude. But I don't apologize for not finding jokes about people with Tourette Syndrome funny. And no I don't have it. If that's your act, don't be offended if I tell my friends that I think your act stinks.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by onifre, posted 12-31-2012 5:19 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by onifre, posted 01-01-2013 10:42 PM NoNukes has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 7 of 91 (686474)
01-01-2013 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by NoNukes
01-01-2013 2:27 PM


If I thought your performance was bad for any reason, including crossing some line, why shouldn't I tell people.
But we're not talking about cases where performances were bad. If you went and watch 30 minutes of garbage on stage, sure, let people know it stunk. It's not a good show to watch. Especially if people are paying money to watch it.
Instead, this is about good performances, by good comics, who say a word or make a joke about a subject that one person in the audience found offensive. (For example, the Tosh "rape comment" was not only not a joke from his act but just something he said off the cuff when a person opened their mouth during his show - which anyone who has been to a comedy show knows you've now made it ok for the comic to fuck with you. Not only was it that, but also the entire audience laughed which means he did his job.) Who cares that that person found it offensive, and, why would anyone else need to know that some random audience member is some club probably no where near you was offended?
If audiences need to be more thick skinned, perhaps comics need to toughen up as well.
If you go watch Daniel Tosh or Tracy Morgan, you can't then ask the comic to apologize for what he does. You went to see him, not the other way around. Nobody needs to be subjected to what they don't want to watch or listen to. But if you happen to stumble into a show by accident or invited by a friend, why does the comic now need to change what he/she does? Or care whether someone is offended by what he does? It's their act, not yours. Leave the show.
Comics are tough. To get to the level of those guys it was a hard, hard road.
These guys cross lines when they picket funerals and yell at grieving families.
I may think they're assholes but I'm not offeded.
Yes. That's true to a great extent. But given that their mission is to make money off the sales of macaroni and cheese, why should you expect anything different?
I don't expect them to do things different. I'm just making it known that it's not liberals, or just the liberals.
If that's your act, don't be offended if I tell my friends that I think your act stinks.
Ok - let me ask you this:
A) If I'm on stage killing in front of you and the audiences (let's say you were enjoying it) and then I do one joke about Tourette Syndrome that you find offensive, does that mean my whole act stinks?
B) Let's say you weren't enjoying me but the rest of the audience was, wouldn't it be better said that you personally didn't find the comic funny and not that his act stinks?
C) There are some really funny jokes about Tourette Syndrome out there. That people with Tourette Syndrome I'm sure find funny. Why would you be offended just because of the subject? Isn't it the mark of a great comic to cross those lines and make those tough subject matters funny?
I heard a hilarious joke about cancer yesterday at a club. From what I saw the entire audience laughed when the comic hit the punchline and it's fair to say that most people there have a friend, family member, know someone, or even they themselves have cancer. Funny is funny.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by NoNukes, posted 01-01-2013 2:27 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by NoNukes, posted 01-02-2013 12:44 AM onifre has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 8 of 91 (686475)
01-01-2013 10:48 PM


Bring back vaudeville and burlesque. Hold nothing and nobody sacred. Mock them all. And Tess the Tahitian Virgin.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 91 (686478)
01-02-2013 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by onifre
01-01-2013 10:42 PM


But we're not talking about cases where performances were bad. If you went and watch 30 minutes of garbage on stage, sure, let people know it stunk. It's not a good show to watch. Especially if people are paying money to watch it.
Isn't it a matter of opinion whether some particular bit ruined the show for some particular attendee? Why should a comic have the right to say anything they want, but a person attending the show be limited in expressing how he felt. If the joke made an attendee angry, he ought to be able to tell about that.
Remember those cattleman from Texas who sued Oprah for bad mouthing hamburgers? I don't see much difference between your position and theirs.
I think comics can say what they want, and bloggers can write what they want about what they heard.
If you go watch Daniel Tosh or Tracy Morgan, you can't then ask the comic to apologize for what he does. You went to see him, not the other way around
I'm not familiar with the Tosh's rape comment.
As far as I am concerned, no comic ever needs to apologize. If they are willing to take the heat for what they say, then so be it. If the station is willing to accept unfavorable consequences for whatever happens, then the station won't insist on an apology.
There are some really funny jokes about Tourette Syndrome out there. That people with Tourette Syndrome I'm sure find funny. Why would you be offended just because of the subject? Isn't it the mark of a great comic to cross those lines and make those tough subject matters funny?
I didn't say I'd be offended. I said that I don't find those jokes funny.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by onifre, posted 01-01-2013 10:42 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by onifre, posted 01-02-2013 9:31 AM NoNukes has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 10 of 91 (686485)
01-02-2013 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by NoNukes
01-02-2013 12:44 AM


Why should a comic have the right to say anything they want, but a person attending the show be limited in expressing how he felt.
They aren't limited. They can say what they want about the show. Critics tear shows apart all of the time.
What I'm talking about is one person saying they were offended and it becoming national news.
If the joke made an attendee angry, he ought to be able to tell about that.
I guess. But A) who cares how one person felt during the show? and B) should it be national news?
I think comics can say what they want, and bloggers can write what they want about what they heard.
I can understand writing about the performance and saying some jokes can be offensive to sensitive ears. But writing an entire blog on why you were offended and drawing national attention for a joke that wasn't the whole act, just a quick one line punchline, seems pathetic. I fear we're giving these people power they not only don't deserve, because frankly, who are they and what have they done to deserve to feel so entitled? But also feeding the sensationalized news monster that we also complain about.
As far as I am concerned, no comic ever needs to apologize. If they are willing to take the heat for what they say, then so be it. If the station is willing to accept unfavorable consequences for whatever happens, then the station won't insist on an apology.
Ok, but note that neither the Tosh comment (joke) or the Tracy Morgan joke, or even the MIchael Richards outburst were done on national tv. They were said at private venues where the comics were performing to maybe, the most, 100-500 people.
Tosh was at his show in some small venue, asked the audience what joke do they want to here and some guy shouts "rape jokes." Some lady jumps up and tells him "NO! Rape is never funny." So, he then let's it pause for a second and says "Wouldn't it be funny if she was raped right now" to which the entire audience laughed. Then Tosh moved on past that, I think even making the comment that rape wasn't funny either.
Next thing it's national news, this one lady felt offended and he has to issue an apology to literally no one because he's employed by Comedy Central and macaroni sales would drop.
I didn't say I'd be offended. I said that I don't find those jokes funny.
Are you sure? I bet given the right comic, right setting and perfectly crafted joke, you'd laugh at a Tourette's joke. You might feel bad afterwards though. Maybe even upset that you laughed.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by NoNukes, posted 01-02-2013 12:44 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by NoNukes, posted 01-02-2013 9:36 AM onifre has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 11 of 91 (686486)
01-02-2013 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by onifre
01-02-2013 9:31 AM


guess. But A) who cares how one person felt during the show? and B) should it be national news?
If the you had your way, noone would hear how that person felt, and noone would care. But apparently, once the person blogs about it, then more people do care. If not then the blog would be a non-issue.
I don't know if it should be national news. But I don't see any point in insisting that the guy shut up.
I can understand writing about the performance and saying some jokes can be offensive to sensitive ears. But writing an entire blog on why you were offended and drawing national attention for a joke that wasn't the whole act, just a quick one line punchline, seems pathetic. I fear we're giving these people power they not only don't deserve, because frankly, who are they and what have they done to deserve to feel so entitled? But also feeding the sensationalized news monster that we also complain about.
Yeah, that pen. Mightier even that the sword. A person offended at your show has the same entitlement you have. Your recourse is more speech not stifling the other bloke.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by onifre, posted 01-02-2013 9:31 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by onifre, posted 01-02-2013 10:09 AM NoNukes has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 12 of 91 (686487)
01-02-2013 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by NoNukes
01-02-2013 9:36 AM


But apparently, once the person blogs about it, then more people do care.
But that's the problem. It eventually becomes more about what the performer said and not about the person who was offended. To where the performer then has to apologize to no one in particular.
But I don't see any point in insisting that the guy shut up.
Even if I insisted that, it won't happen. So I don't bother caring to ever shut someone up.
A person offended at your show has the same entitlement you have.
How so? As a performer grinding your act out for years, dealing with everything this business puts us through. Then eventually catching that break, perfecting your act to your audience and building a huge fan base. How is someone sitting in the audience as entitled as the performer? I don't get how you mean that.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by NoNukes, posted 01-02-2013 9:36 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by NoNukes, posted 01-02-2013 11:04 AM onifre has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(2)
Message 13 of 91 (686489)
01-02-2013 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by onifre
12-31-2012 5:19 PM


I largely agree with you, and you said "big business" in the title so it surprised me when I actually read your post and it seemed like you didn't cover this part: Daniel Tosh and Tracy Morgan are guys with TV shows, and their TV shows have advertisers, and those companies stand to lose a lot, or think they do, if they develop a reputation as "Proctor and Gamble, proudly supporting the right of fathers to beat the shit out of their gay sons since 2010!"
The apologies aren't to mollify unspecified "offended" people who are forcing Tosh and Morgan and others to cower before a deluge of sternly-worded letters. They're to mollify their advertisers, without which these guys don't have careers. I think we'd all agree that a comedian is more admirable when they make the jokes they think are funny and don't worry about offending people, because fuck 'em if they can't take a joke. But surely we'd also agree that such a comic would never make any money, because they could never break into TV or film. Right? You'd know more about it than I, I guess, but from out here in the "audience" it seems pretty obvious that these manufactured outrages and the subsequent apology are driven by the desire not to lose advertisers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by onifre, posted 12-31-2012 5:19 PM onifre has replied

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 14 of 91 (686497)
01-02-2013 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by onifre
12-31-2012 5:19 PM


Oni writes:
Mostly I just get bothered by those jokes when they're not funny and poorly constructed and the comic was just going for "shock" value rather than quality content.
I think the shock value is spot on. I enjoy a good comedy show. I dont mind when a comedian is speaking vulgar, and being crude and crass and down right nasty. That's the game.
However I do feel some comedians get alot of their laughs from the shock factor. I avoid those type comedians. You know the ones who "go there".
I do not get why someone who may be easily offended would pay money to go to a show to be easily offended.
And then have the nerve to complain they were offended.
I do believe a comic can be funny and not outright offensive.
But it is a fine balance act. To laugh at a joke is to laugh at ourselves. Some people just don't get it. cue the crickets.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by onifre, posted 12-31-2012 5:19 PM onifre has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 15 of 91 (686500)
01-02-2013 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by onifre
01-02-2013 10:09 AM


How is someone sitting in the audience as entitled as the performer? I don't get how you mean that.
I don't know how to make it any plainer. The world does not owe you a living doing comedy. You can say whatever you want. I can say whatever I want. I don't get to disrupt your show, but I can post what I want on my blog. If I'm wrong, the way to counter that is for you to say more stuff and not to shut me up.
That's how free speech works. If Oprah is grossed out by how badly cows are treated, she gets to say that she isn't going to eat beef anymore. If you raise cattle for a living, you get to take out commercials telling us that cows are really treated humanely and don't have mad cow disease.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by onifre, posted 01-02-2013 10:09 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by onifre, posted 01-02-2013 11:45 AM NoNukes has replied

  
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