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Author Topic:   Pope Francis allows for Atheism
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 1 of 60 (700800)
06-07-2013 10:32 AM


In a recent sermon, Pope Francis has taken the lead step in allowing for religion to accept atheists in this world! Atheists, seen by most religions as guaranteed to burn for all eternity, have never cared about condemnation to Hell because there is no evidence that a Hell even exists. However, Pope Francis has taken a huge step toward accepting atheists in this world for who they are. And this is coming from the head of the first Christian church!!!!

Pope Francis writes:

I have come to the conclusion that whether or not a person is a religious believer does not matter much. Far more important is that they be a good human being.

I think that this is a very important sentiment being stated boldly by the leader of more than 1 billion religious individuals. Now, I do not think it is important because I want to get into a heaven (a place I have no reason to trust in the existence of), but rather because it can be an enormous step to bringing different groups together under the ideal of doing good and helping one another, regardless of creed (or lack of creed).

Another benefit that this statement by the Pontiff brings is the ability for individuals, such as myself, to finally reveal who they are to family members whom they did not want to disappoint or sadden. My mother is a devout Catholic and will always remain so. It is because of her strong belief in the Catholic faith and the afterlife that I have been unable to reveal the fact that I no longer believe in any of the myths to her. However, even without changing either of our beliefs, I can now reveal this new truth to her. She can know that this change in belief for me does not preclude me from her heaven should she be right, which was the aspect that would devesate her otherwise.

In fact, the Catholic church quickly issued a statement clarifying Francis' statement. It wanted to ensure that the statement made by Pope Francis did not state that Jesus was not the way to salvation, but rather that Jesus died for all sin.

After the sermon, Father Rosica issued this statement for the Vatican,

Rosica writes:

all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her.

See, the funny thing in this statement by Rosica is that it does not remove the meaning from the statement made by Pope Francis. A requirement in the Catholic Cathecism about refusing to enter the church states that one must refuse to enter the church, while in full knowledge that the church is necessary for salvation. As an atheist, I am not in knowledge that the church is required for salvation, a salvation that I do not see any evidence for the existence of. This would mean that all I can possibly do is to do good in the world.

According to the article "The Truth about Pope Francis and Atheists" there is yet another loophole within the Catholic Cathecism:

Truth writes:

A non-Christian may reject a Christian’s presentation of the gospel of Christ. That however, does not necessarily mean that the person has truly rejected Christ and God. Rejection of Christianity may not mean the rejection of Christ. For if a given individual rejects the Christianity brought to him through the Church’s preaching, even then we are still never in any position to decide whether this rejection as it exists in the concrete signifies a grave fault or an act of faithfulness to one’s own conscience. We can never say with ultimate certainty whether a non-Christian who has rejected Christianity and who, in spite of a certain encounter with Christianity, does not become a Christian, is still following the temporary path mapped out for his own salvation which is leading him to an encounter with God, or whether he has now entered upon the way of perdition.

Source

I do not have to trust another individual's opinion on the existence of God, the truth contained in the Gospels, or any other portion of the cathecism of the Christian faith to achieve salvation. Rather, these loopholes leave the openings that are required for the Pope's words to actually ring true and allow Catholics worldwide to accept atheists...Maybe not as brothers and sisters in Christ, but at least as brothers and sisters!

I believe that this is a huge step for a church that has been known in the past for being unyielding, sticklers for exact adhesion to cathecism, and all-around has treated those with differing views with disdain and torture (death as well). The Catholic Church is, for once, on the forefront of accepting individuals for who they are and still, whether or not atheists care about it, offering them salvation without forcing them to relinquish their views.

As an ex-Catholic, I for one applaud Pope Francis for being a man of integrity (so far as we have seen yet) and for understanding that the human condition leads many people to different conclusions and that the first and foremost important thing for any of us to do is good works. After all, wasn't it Jesus who said:

Jesus from Matthew 25:35-43 writes:

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Stile, posted 06-07-2013 11:18 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 5:23 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded
 Message 30 by GDR, posted 06-11-2013 12:15 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5867
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2 of 60 (700801)
06-07-2013 10:54 AM


Well yippee, some bloke says something different to the last bloke.

I suppose it's progress of sorts and I''m pleased that you can out yourself to your mum.

Let's hope the next pope doesn't say something different again. It's almost like they're making it up as they go along - sheesh, they'll say that there's no such thing as limbo next.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 06-07-2013 11:13 AM Tangle has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2762
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 3 of 60 (700802)
06-07-2013 11:01 AM


It is sort of the message from Vatican II. Accepting that all people of all religions can recieve grace outside the church.
It has been a point of contention since then I believe.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 06-07-2013 11:32 AM 1.61803 has responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 4 of 60 (700803)
06-07-2013 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Tangle
06-07-2013 10:54 AM


Agreed on fluidity
Tangle writes:

Well yippee, some bloke says something different to the last bloke.

Yes, this does seem to be a problem with these Popes. Similarly, we had Pope John Paul II who stated in a sermon that evolution was fully compatible with the doctrines of the Catholic Faith. Then, after his death Pope Benedict made the opposite statement during a sermon on Easter. However, I am trying to give them the benefit of the doubt that they may try to remain more progressive. Perhaps they have learned the lessons of the past and that strict adherence to only their viewpoints will tend to alienate or even create animosity toward the church...one can hope at least. Lol.

Tangle writes:

I suppose it's progress of sorts and I''m pleased that you can out yourself to your mum.

Yeah, it is progress, although we will see how long they hold to this viewpoint. I am glad as well. Since giving up all faith, it has been a stone in the pit of my stomach anytime religion is brought up in my parents' household. Knowing that I do not agree or believe and at the same time that saying anything would destroy my mother. Thankfully this paves the way to allow for honestly in the household without crushing someone.

Tangle writes:

Let's hope the next pope doesn't say something different again. It's almost like they're making it up as they go along - sheesh, they'll say that there's no such thing as limbo next.

Wait....which Pope brought back limbo? I mean, purgatory they believe in, but I am pretty sure limbo is still a thing of the past. Although, one never knows.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Tangle, posted 06-07-2013 10:54 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 06-07-2013 11:32 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3193
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 5 of 60 (700804)
06-07-2013 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
06-07-2013 10:32 AM


Meh
Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:

In a recent sermon, Pope Francis has taken the lead step in allowing for religion to accept atheists in this world!

At first I was all "well, isn't that nice... this Pope Francis sounds like a pretty decent dude. Yay 'n stuff."

Then I thought about it a bit.

Is it really "nice"? Or is it just normal?
I think it's really just not-being-a-douchebag.

Accepting that people are different and that other opinions are just as valid as your own should be a default human baseline. Not something seen as "nice" or "special."

They still have problems with other opinions that simply differ from their own. Like the gay stuff.

So, no... I don't say "Yay Catholics! That's a nice move!"

I'll just say "Yay Catholics! You're almost not-a-douchebag! If you keep going in this direction, one day you'll move up to the moral status of Average Human Being!"

Admiring the Catholic Church for this move is like congratulating the school bully for not stuffing someone in a locker.

Oh... sorry for this rant. I played a double-header of slo-pitch last night. It was raining. For both games. And cold too. I might be feeling somewhat bitter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 06-07-2013 10:32 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 06-07-2013 11:55 AM Stile has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5867
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 6 of 60 (700805)
06-07-2013 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
06-07-2013 11:13 AM


Re: Agreed on fluidity
12ft writes:

Wait....which Pope brought back limbo? I mean, purgatory they believe in, but I am pretty sure limbo is still a thing of the past. Although, one never knows.

It was sarcasm, but it only happened a few years ago.

The decision was taken after Benedict XVI was presented with Vatican studies that said there were "serious" grounds that such souls could go to heaven, rather than exist between heaven and hell as they have done for almost 800 years.
The 41-page report by the Vatican's Theological Commission, which was compiled following a three-year study, said the concept was an "unduly restrictive view of salvation". However, it added that baptism was the only way to remove the stain of original sin - which according to the Catholic faith all are born with - and urged parents to continue to baptise their children.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...-of-limbo-after-800-years.html

Good that they gathered all that objective evidence, then made something up to contradict it isn't it.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 06-07-2013 11:13 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 06-07-2013 11:37 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 7 of 60 (700806)
06-07-2013 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by 1.61803
06-07-2013 11:01 AM


Similar, but not the same
1.numbers writes:

It is sort of the message from Vatican II. Accepting that all people of all religions can recieve grace outside the church.
It has been a point of contention since then I believe.

I do agree it is similar to the statements issued in Vatican II. However, the big part of those statements was that it did not matter wht you believed, as long as you believed in your god with your whole heart, then salvation was available to you. However, Vatican II did not go as far as to say that zero belief in a deity was also acceptable. This statement merely pushes it further out and accepts all individuals, even in the absence of faith. I see this as a good step forward.

As an example, I always see those Coexist stickers on cars. And I began to notice something about them.

First, let's look at one of them:

If you look at this symbol, notice which symbol is missing...
We have
C = Islam
o = Peace
e = Male/Female symbols
x = Judaism
i = Wicca
s = Yin and Yang
t = Christianity

This covers many religions (obviously not all) and there are other versions including one with the E=MC^2 symbol for the e instead of Male/Female symbols. However, in every version I have ever seen, this symbol:


never seems to find its way into this idea of coexistence..I know there is no A in Coexist, but there could be a version that states..oh...I don't know, the word "Acceptance"

Another point to look at is the that Canon law specifies what is required, and interestingly, like all laws, there are loopholes involved.

In the statement by Rosica, the loophole to focus on to allow what the Pope has said is contained in the line:

Rosica writes:

knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation

This was used for Vatican II to allow for all other faiths and this Pope has simply expanded it out by claiming that Atheists would also not know that the Church is necessary.

Again, as an atheist, this statement does nothing to adjust my worldview or to alter my ideas on what is evidenced, and therefore worthy of consideration of its existence. Rather, I find it surprising that the Catholics, those who persecuted others for so long, are somewhat on the forefront of attempting to reduce persecution, even for complete lack of belief.

Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.

Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by 1.61803, posted 06-07-2013 11:01 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by 1.61803, posted 06-11-2013 10:52 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 8 of 60 (700807)
06-07-2013 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tangle
06-07-2013 11:32 AM


Re: Agreed on fluidity
No, I actually do find that very interesting. I was a youth leader for the church for 9 years (ending in 2006) and we were specifically told to not teach limbo as an actual thing. According to my instructions for questions on this topic, I was told to inform them that Jesus did die for all sins and that infants who passed before baptism would receive the forgiveness through the death of Jesus. Interesting that we were told to teach that prior to the official change in Catholic Doctrine.

Yeah, and that is hilarious that they still push the emergency baptisms, even though they specifically state there is no danger of eternal nothingness without receiving this sacrament according to Catholic doctrine now.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 06-07-2013 11:32 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 9 of 60 (700808)
06-07-2013 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Stile
06-07-2013 11:18 AM


Re: Meh
Stile writes:

At first I was all "well, isn't that nice... this Pope Francis sounds like a pretty decent dude. Yay 'n stuff."

Well, aside from just this aspect, there have been a few news stories since his election as Pope that make me think Francis may make some decent changes within the Catholic Church. Things such as going out into Rome and washing the feet of the homeless, refusing the Papal car back to the Vatican and opting to take a bus instead, and refusing to accept the offer of a free room from the hotel he stayed in the night after the conclave (he refused and ensured that the hotel was paid for his accommodations). It just seems like he might be lacking the hubris that Popes normally have, although I could definitely be proven wrong.

Stile writes:

Is it really "nice"? Or is it just normal?
I think it's really just not-being-a-douchebag.

You are correct. It is nice, but also it should be considered simply normal. However, something normal and accepting coming out of the Vatican is a breath of fresh air. I would prefer more normal views to be espoused by this organization. The point remains that it must begin one step at a time, and I think this Pope may (I emphasize may) be the one to start bringing some of those changes

Stile writes:

They still have problems with other opinions that simply differ from their own. Like the gay stuff.

They do still have problems with things and I am not suggesting we let them off the hook on the rest of their outdated ideas. But, we should give credit when they take an idea that has been outdated for a long time and completely remove it. Not credit in the sense of "Good Job!" But rather credit in the form of "Good start, now keep fixing the other problems."

Which is exactly the same sentiment I believe you are aiming for with this statement:

Stile writes:

Yay Catholics! You're almost not-a-douchebag! If you keep going in this direction, one day you'll move up to the moral status of Average Human Being!

Stile writes:

Admiring the Catholic Church for this move is like congratulating the school bully for not stuffing someone in a locker.

Agreed, it is similar. The thing is that we have to allow these institutions an opportunity to adjust and change, especially when they begin to show they are willing to, just like we should with the bully. If the bully shoves someone in a locker everyday for three years, and then does not one day, perhaps that behavior and that change can be continued on if people acknowledge that the change has happened. Not saying that you give them (or the bully) a free pass, but rather that we (unlike what the Catholic church has done for many years in the past) offer them a chance to prove their sincerity in this change.

Let us see what other things this Pope has up his sleeve. The rest of his decisions could be either all good, all bad, or a combination, but at least he is starting his Papacy on a good foot.

Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Stile, posted 06-07-2013 11:18 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Stile, posted 06-07-2013 3:27 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3078
Joined: 08-11-2004


(1)
Message 10 of 60 (700820)
06-07-2013 2:31 PM


This pope is much better than the last couple of Popes. .. when it comes to the rhetoric said at least.

I do think he still has a problem with women though.. and homosexuals. Give them a few more Popes to be less... verbose against them.


  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3193
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 11 of 60 (700821)
06-07-2013 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
06-07-2013 11:55 AM


Re: Meh
Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:

The thing is that we have to allow these institutions an opportunity to adjust and change, especially when they begin to show they are willing to, just like we should with the bully. If the bully shoves someone in a locker everyday for three years, and then does not one day, perhaps that behavior and that change can be continued on if people acknowledge that the change has happened.

Yes. When this sort of behaviour happens, it certainly is better to encourage it rather than discourage it.

Let us see what other things this Pope has up his sleeve. The rest of his decisions could be either all good, all bad, or a combination, but at least he is starting his Papacy on a good foot.

Magic 8-ball says:
All signs point to yes


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 06-07-2013 11:55 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7465
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 12 of 60 (700828)
06-07-2013 5:16 PM


I am of two or three minds on this whole thing. The sardonic atheist in me gives it a big "Meh". It moves my needle about as high as someone telling me that I don't need to believe in Santa Claus in order to get nice gifts. It also seems like kind of a chicken shit sort of move given the number of non-believers in Europe. It has the feeling of closing the barn door after the cows are gone.

At the same time, I sympathize with people like Tempe who may be having a tough time being "honest" with their family. While it may not affect me in any noticeable way, I can see how it can create bridges between friends and family members.

Then comes the epiphany. If we put this into a historical context it really shows how far we have come. There is simply no way a Pope from the 8th century would have said this. Hell, we have Charlemagne converting pagans at the point of a sword during this era. I really get the feeling that we are starting to see the fruition of the Enlightenment. I think Voltaire would be proud.

So, I'm all over the board with respect to this announcement. Overall, I can't really say anything really bad about it . . . so . . . Meh.


  
Faith
Member
Posts: 28889
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 13 of 60 (700829)
06-07-2013 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
06-07-2013 10:32 AM


Dear Tempe,
I sympathize with you in your complicated position with your family but I also sympathize with your Catholic family. I feel sorry for sincere Catholics who haven't a clue about the real meaning of the machinations of the Vatican.

My take on Pope Francis is just that this is the latest in Rome's "ecumenical" moves to bring every human being under the power of Rome. They have no shame and no integrity, they'll say whatever they think furthers their standing in the world. Pope John Paul included all the pagan religions, now Francis is including atheists. They've either absorbed or turned a blind eye to many a tribal shamanistic religion, they tolerate voodoo for instance. Now atheists. Who's left?

On one hand they'll say oh everybody is saved but then on the other you can find them asserting that there is no salvation outside the RCC. It's all a matter of what they think furthers their main aim which is to dominate the world. Well, they did once dominate a lot of it. The Protestant Reformation took that away from them. n They want that power back. According to Biblical prophecy as some of us read it they are going to get their wish. It certainly furthers that wish when atheists think such a strategic wolfish move is progress.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 06-07-2013 10:32 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 06-07-2013 6:00 PM Faith has responded
 Message 16 by Taq, posted 06-07-2013 8:15 PM Faith has responded

    
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 14 of 60 (700831)
06-07-2013 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
06-07-2013 5:23 PM


Thanks
Faithh writes:

I sympathize with you in your complicated position with your family but I also sympathize with your Catholic family. I feel sorry for sincere Catholics who haven't a clue about the real meaning of the machinations of the Vatican.

Hey Faith, while you and I rarely agree on discussions on this board, I do thank you for your sympathy. It is difficult to try and avoid the topic of religion around my house, especially considering my family saw me during my extreme participation days when I was at the church five days a week practicing for choir, writing skits, making videos, creating lessons and the like. I get why you sympathize for them as well, although I do not agree with your reasons for doing so.

Faith writes:

My take on Pope Francis is just that this is the latest in Rome's "ecumenical" moves to bring every human being under the power of Rome. They have no shame and no integrity, they'll say whatever they think furthers their standing in the world. Pope John Paul included all the pagan religions, now Francis is including atheists. They've either absorbed or turned a blind eye to many a tribal shamanistic religion, they tolerate voodoo for instance. Now atheists. Who's left?

Accepting one another for who they are should be paramount in our lives, because we should never expect other individuals to adjust who they are for our sake or benefit (or even for what we think would be their benefit). This is why I applaud the move by Pope Francis. He did not state that Atheists are saved once they turn back toward Christianity. Rather, that atheists can live their lives of nonbelief, they should simply try to do so with good deeds and helpfulness for their fellow humans.

At this time in this world we have already seen more than enough evidence that trying to separate individuals through their beliefs or nonbeliefs leads to large amounts of violence. We see the foreign terrorists committing suicide bombings, the domestic terrorists bombing abortion clinics, and even war based solely on ideological reasons. Do we really need to keep warring with each other?

The way I see it, you are always against the Vatican, so why not talk to the Catholics in the trenches (regular Catholics)? Get them to appreciate and like who for you are, not by attacking their faith, but by trying to understand it from their perspective. Don't confront them and tell them their leaders are evil, but confront them with kindness, love and understanding. Perhaps then, if you are right (which I still doubt) these everyday Catholics will most likely not join with the leaders should they attempt to bring about another murdering inquisition.

Faith writes:

On one hand they'll say oh everybody is saved but then on the other you can find them asserting that there is no salvation outside the RCC.

I am guessing that you are referring to the anathemas, but please correct me if I am wrong. If so, well then all one needs to do is look to the massive amounts of loopholes that are listed in the cathecism to realize they did not really safeguard heaven against anyone. Lol. I pointed out the part in the cathecism that states that an individual must have an understanding that the Catholic Church is the correct way and still deny it for that to be held against the individual. There are countless loopholes in there that allow for every religion under the sun to be saved...including Protestants even with the anathema.

Faith writes:

It certainly furthers that wish when atheists think such a strategic wolfish move is progress.

I do not see this as a wolfish move and I wish that other Christians would be willing to do something similar. You will not change my mind without verifiable, repeatable evidence of a deity. It will not happen. So, personally, as an individual and a fellow human being, I would rather that you just accept that I came to my viewpoint through reason and that I am happy with the decision I made. This is exactly what the Pope has done. He is not asking me to change. Were he to do so, I would have laughed about this announcement and considered it the same problem being rehashed.

As far as it being progress, we currently live in a world where people place atheists as the equivalent of rapists in their view of them. Seriously!?!?! Atheists are equal to rapists?

Source

These are the types of insulting views that many religious people have about atheists, simply due to their lack of belief. Personally, I did not leave the church because I wanted to sin, but rather for rational reasons that told me that this cannot possibly be true with all the evidence that we have found to this point. I am not saying it is not possible, only that it is not probable. I still believe fully that every human being, every animal, every organism that we can find deserves to be treated with kindness and respect. Yet, according to a majority of people, I am just as bad to have around as a rapist...

...Now, flip sides on this and imagine that a majority of people put "True Bible Believers" on par with rapists. Would you be pleased to hear that the leader of one of the largest groups against you has informed his congregation to not only allow you to have your belief, but that you would not be damned for holding that belief? A situation you never thought was possible? Put another way, how would you feel if Pope Francis came out and removed the anathemas from all Protestants? Would you applaud that move? If so, then perhaps you can understand why I applaud his acceptance of my nonbelief.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 5:23 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 6:27 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 28889
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 15 of 60 (700832)
06-07-2013 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
06-07-2013 6:00 PM


Re: Thanks
I was an atheist for thirty years of my life, at times a fairly aggressive one. I don't think I have disdain for anybody's beliefs and I'm a bit surprised that there's any equation such as you suggest between atheists and rapists. (The study refers to "religious people." Who are they? The category is way too vague.) Anyway I never felt such animosity when I was an atheist, it was the thing to be. I've encountered extreme animosity since becoming a Christian however, started encountering it even from friends during the period when I was becoming a believer.

I'm not an evangelist, I'm something more like a student of history these days, but I'd approach individual Catholics I meet on a different basis than I argue historical issues on a debate board.

I stand by what I said here. I figure maybe eventually it will be of some use to somebody even if it isn't now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 06-07-2013 6:00 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

    
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