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Author Topic:   The Debt Clock
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 1 of 111 (702536)
07-08-2013 7:23 PM


The Economist has published a 'Debt Clock' showing government debt across the globe.

Link

What are we to make of this? The strong implication seems to be debt always = bad. But if you look at the countries with the lowest debt they also seem to be those with the least developed industrial and economic infrastructure.

Is a certain level of debt necessary for economic and productive progress? Is this 'clock' just pursuing the fallacy of big numbers?

Or is it a fair reflection of a problem that the Western world seems unable to adequately acknowledge?

What do you make of it?


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Phat
Member
Posts: 10079
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 2 of 111 (702541)
07-08-2013 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
07-08-2013 7:23 PM


Blues Clues
Straggler writes:

The strong implication seems to be debt always = bad. But if you look at the countries with the lowest debt they also seem to be those with the least developed industrial and economic infrastructure.

Is a certain level of debt necessary for economic and productive progress? Is this 'clock' just pursuing the fallacy of big numbers?

Or is it a fair reflection of a problem that the Western world seems unable to adequately acknowledge?

Ahh yes! That pesky debt! The conspiracy of the wealthy to transfer their private responsibility as wealthy humans into public responsibility of the willfully ignorant masses! I know the topic well.....

our very own jar used to always chant the mantra that "the bill will get paid! Which annoyed me.

The inner conspiracy theorist suggests that the global debt is sort of synonymous with a plot to harness the global collateral known as humanity and assign us all permanent debit status. We can all collectively borrow endlessly off of this "out of thin air" money virtually perpetually and eternally but we are slaves to the monopoly game we all agreed to play.

All I know is this. Personally, I am out of debt. Any bill that gets sent my way will have to be one I actually created. Otherwise it gets tossed in the trash along with all of the credit card offers.


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Coyote
Member
Posts: 6030
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 3 of 111 (702542)
07-08-2013 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
07-08-2013 10:22 PM


Re: Blues Clues
Personally, I am out of debt. Any bill that gets sent my way will have to be one I actually created.

From Wiki:

The national debt equates to $44,900 per person U.S. population...

Try claiming you are out of debt when the IRS comes calling...


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


Message 4 of 111 (702543)
07-08-2013 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coyote
07-08-2013 10:36 PM


Re: Blues Clues
Try claiming you are out of debt when the IRS comes calling...

I don't think you understand how these things actually work.
Government debt is a good thing. It is how we actually get things done.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


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Coyote
Member
Posts: 6030
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 5 of 111 (702544)
07-08-2013 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Theodoric
07-08-2013 10:55 PM


Re: Blues Clues
Government debt is a good thing.

There is no such thing as government debt.

All "government debt" is money spent by the government but actually owed by people and corporate "persons."

It is people and corporate "persons" who create wealth; the most the government can do is print currency. These are two entirely different things.


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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 497 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 6 of 111 (702545)
07-08-2013 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coyote
07-08-2013 10:36 PM


Re: Blues Clues
Yea! Off to the Gulag with you! Obama is a muslim commie and Murica is Russia! Hitler! Corporations are good and poor people are shit! Rich people make the world go round and poor people make the world worse! If you are poor, FUCK YOU!

Anywho, if you don't owe any personal taxes and are actually debt free (no credit cards, mortgage, car etc) then yes, you are debt free. Why would you think otherwise or think the IRS would tell you differently? Did Hannity tell you that the IRS is going to come after YOU for the national debt?

"Hello, Coyote? Yes, this is the IRS calling. We are sorry to inform you that YOUR portion of the national debt is now due. Any further income you receive will be intercepted by Grand Master Obama himself and rerouted directly to his bank account. Sorry for any trouble, but this is America now".

On second thought, I bet Fox would actually say some shit like that. Pretty sure Drudge already has.....


"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


Message 7 of 111 (702552)
07-09-2013 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Coyote
07-08-2013 11:06 PM


Re: Blues Clues
You really need a class or two on economics.

Are you saying that there should be no government debt?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11816
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 8 of 111 (702558)
07-09-2013 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Theodoric
07-09-2013 8:16 AM


Re: Blues Clues
Well I don't know shit about economics. But the link in the OP says "Current Global Public Dept".

So off to wiki I go...

quote:
Government debt (also known as public debt and national debt) is the debt owed by a central government. By contrast, the annual "government deficit" refers to the difference between government receipts and spending in a single year, that is, the increase of debt over a particular year.

Governments usually borrow by issuing securities, government bonds and bills. Less creditworthy countries sometimes borrow directly from a supranational organization (e.g. the World Bank) or international financial institutions.

As the government draws its income from much of the population, government debt is an indirect debt of the taxpayers. Government debt can be categorized as internal debt (owed to lenders within the country) and external debt (owed to foreign lenders).


Here's what Coyote said:

There is no such thing as government debt.

All "government debt" is money spent by the government but actually owed by people and corporate "persons."

That doesn't seem wholly inaccurate to me.

Although, the link in the OP says this:

quote:
After all, world governments owe the money to their own citizens, not to the Martians.

So who owns the dept, who's it due to?

Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.


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Coyote
Member
Posts: 6030
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 9 of 111 (702559)
07-09-2013 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by New Cat's Eye
07-09-2013 10:09 AM


Re: Blues Clues
Two different concepts here.

First, "...world governments owe the money to their own citizens, not to the Martians." Actually governments owe the money to whomever they borrowed it from.

Second, the money the government uses to pay off that government debt, must come from taxes on people and corporate "people." The government has no wealth of its own, nor does it create any. The most it can do is run the printing presses which is money, not wealth.


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jar
Member
Posts: 29623
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 10 of 111 (702561)
07-09-2013 10:37 AM


Debt can be good
Whether debt is good or bad depends on why the debt was incurred. Is the value of what the debt purchased worth more than the actual cost incurred? Debt to build, repair, replace infrastructure, debt to improve the health, education and quality of life of the general population is usually good. Healthy educated citizens are an asset to a country. Good infrastructure is an asset to a country.

Other debt may well be bad.

But all the debt must get repaid.

The first step towards repaying debt though is to abolish the fiction of the "Corporate Person".


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 111 (702573)
07-09-2013 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Coyote
07-08-2013 11:06 PM


Re: Blues Clues
and corporate "persons."

And where does their money come from?


Love your enemies!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 10079
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 12 of 111 (702584)
07-09-2013 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
07-09-2013 10:37 AM


Why Must The Debt Be Repaid?
quote:
But all the debt must get repaid.

Why? Its just people owing other people. Why must it get repaid? I have known several ex-friends (and friends as well) who owed me money that they borrowed...and to date have never paid it back. Why cant this truth hold true on a macro scale?


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Coyote
Member
Posts: 6030
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 13 of 111 (702586)
07-09-2013 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
07-09-2013 11:28 PM


Re: Why Must The Debt Be Repaid?
Why? Its just people owing other people. Why must it get repaid? I have known several ex-friends (and friends as well) who owed me money that they borrowed...and to date have never paid it back. Why cant this truth hold true on a macro scale?

Are you serious?

Or did I miss the /sarcasm tag somehow.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 10079
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 14 of 111 (702590)
07-10-2013 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Coyote
07-09-2013 11:50 PM


Re: Why Must The Debt Be Repaid?
Coyote writes:

Are you serious?

Does the thought make you nervous? "If I don't get my dream, nobody gets their dream!"
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


(1)
Message 15 of 111 (702591)
07-10-2013 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by New Cat's Eye
07-09-2013 10:09 AM


Re: Blues Clues
So who owns the debt, who's it due to?

I think Coyote was being a bit dramatic with his IRS comment. I think he knows better. The IRS couldn't care less about your debt or what is touted as some individual portion of the National debt. The IRS only cares about your taxes.

No portion of the National debt is owed by any individual person but by all of us collectively. The "society," as represented by the central government, owes the debt. As with our currency, the debt is backed by the "full faith and credit of the United States," not by the "full faith and credit of the United States Government."

The US debt is in the form of Treasury notes and bonds. Anyone who buys/owns a treasury note or bond owns a piece of that debt settlement of which is to be paid to them when the note or bond becomes due.

I own a small chunk of that debt, about as much as to offset that fictitious individual portion that I owe. If you own ANY mutual fund then you own some as well since the funds keep their cash assets in Treasuries.

The vast majority of US National debt (about 60%) is owned by us, US domestic persons, retirement plans, corporate and Fed Reserve holdings, all kinds of funds. The remainder is owned by foreign people and entities. Foreign governments, or actually their central banks, own about 27%.

So that's who owes it and who owns it.

You young ones may be too young, but the rest of you should remember when Clinton did the budget surplus thing and the "peace dividend" was all the rage. One of the proposals to "spend" this windfall was to pay down the debt. Problem: the whole world's financial markets were apoplectic and shaking with fear. They were already feeling squeezed by the fact that the issuance of new bonds and notes had stopped since we didn't need to fund any more debt. The prospect of a shrinking US Treasuries market sent shocks through the whole financial world. People may think gold is the standard for asset protection, when in fact, for the major markets, funds, banks and governments the whole world over the capital preservation asset of choice is the US Government Treasury bond.


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