Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 121 (8774 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 07-28-2017 10:57 AM
369 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Tom Larkin
Post Volume:
Total: 814,790 Year: 19,396/21,208 Month: 2,155/3,111 Week: 376/574 Day: 31/59 Hour: 7/4

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
23456
...
21NextFF
Author Topic:   Question for creationists: Why would you rather believe in a small God?
yenmor
Member (Idle past 1130 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 1 of 301 (702651)
07-08-2013 12:38 PM


To my dear creationist brothers and sisters,

First of all, I need to throw this out there so there's no misunderstanding. I am an atheist. There are many branches of atheism. There's the militant atheism and there's those in more of a gray area. I exist somewhere between the agnostic and atheist. I don't rule out the possibility of an ultimate being responsible for everything.

Last night, I turned on the tv right before I slept. I stumbled onto an episode of The Universe. This episode was on galaxies.

Basically speaking, our solar system is part of a normal size galaxy called the Milky Way. The Milky Way is part of a cluster of galaxies, including Andromeda. And this cluster is part of a super-cluster of galaxies.

Everywhere the Hubble points at, there are billions of galaxies. They guess-timate that there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy, and there are about 100 billion galaxies in the visible universe.

In other words, the universe is humongous. Who knows what kinds of wonders that are out there. We've barely scratched the surface.

During the show, I thought to myself. If there was a God, and he created this really really really really big universe with all these wonders that are out there waiting for us to explore, why would you rather believe that His word only exist in a book? Why not embrace in a God that is bigger and more powerful than anything we can ever understand, you know, like the God that created this really really really really really big universe?

The more I think about it, the more logic tells me that creationists should be on the forefront of scientific discoveries. God created the entire universe with all the principles and everything else that keeps it in place. We, as His children, should be out there finding out more of His creation instead of stifling scientific discoveries wherever possible.

If there is a God, His true bible exists in nature, not an ancient book that was written by people thousands of years ago.

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 07-09-2013 9:41 AM yenmor has responded
 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-10-2013 4:52 PM yenmor has not yet responded
 Message 7 by marc9000, posted 07-10-2013 7:15 PM yenmor has responded
 Message 8 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-10-2013 7:37 PM yenmor has not yet responded
 Message 9 by nwr, posted 07-10-2013 7:52 PM yenmor has not yet responded
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 07-10-2013 10:16 PM yenmor has not yet responded
 Message 15 by NoNukes, posted 07-11-2013 12:11 PM yenmor has not yet responded
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 07-12-2013 6:02 AM yenmor has not yet responded
 Message 244 by Alias, posted 08-25-2013 9:53 PM yenmor has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12519
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 2 of 301 (702652)
07-09-2013 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by yenmor
07-08-2013 12:38 PM


Hi Yenmor,

You've sort of gone in two different directions. One is a science question (God of the gaps, which would place this thread in Is It Science?), the other is a Bible question (why take the Bible's word over nature's, which would place this thread in The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy).

Could you edit you're opening post a bit so it's more clear where this belongs?


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by yenmor, posted 07-08-2013 12:38 PM yenmor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by yenmor, posted 07-10-2013 1:33 PM Admin has responded

    
yenmor
Member (Idle past 1130 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 3 of 301 (702653)
07-10-2013 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
07-09-2013 9:41 AM


Done.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 07-09-2013 9:41 AM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Admin, posted 07-10-2013 1:44 PM yenmor has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12519
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 4 of 301 (702654)
07-10-2013 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by yenmor
07-10-2013 1:33 PM


Hi Yenmor,

Sorry, I'm still not clear on which direction you want to go. I'm going to put this is The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy, hope that's okay.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by yenmor, posted 07-10-2013 1:33 PM yenmor has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12519
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 5 of 301 (702656)
07-10-2013 1:45 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Question for creationists: Why would you rather believe in a small God? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11575
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 6 of 301 (702664)
07-10-2013 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by yenmor
07-08-2013 12:38 PM


Did you see this?

Message 829


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by yenmor, posted 07-08-2013 12:38 PM yenmor has not yet responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 889
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 7 of 301 (702679)
07-10-2013 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by yenmor
07-08-2013 12:38 PM


To my dear creationist brothers and sisters,

First of all, I need to throw this out there so there's no misunderstanding. I am an atheist. There are many branches of atheism. There's the militant atheism and there's those in more of a gray area. I exist somewhere between the agnostic and atheist. I don't rule out the possibility of an ultimate being responsible for everything.

Last night, I turned on the tv right before I slept. I stumbled onto an episode of The Universe. This episode was on galaxies.

Basically speaking, our solar system is part of a normal size galaxy called the Milky Way. The Milky Way is part of a cluster of galaxies, including Andromeda. And this cluster is part of a super-cluster of galaxies.

Everywhere the Hubble points at, there are billions of galaxies. They guess-timate that there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy, and there are about 100 billion galaxies in the visible universe.

As a creationist, I don't consider guess-timates involving thousands, or millions of light years as a science that is to be readily accepted and unquestioned. Science is supposed to be testable, repeatable, observable, falsifiable. I think it gets a little vague when we claim to analyze something (glimmers of light) that took thousands or millions of years to reach us.

As an agnostic/atheist, are you never the slightest bit skeptical of secular guess-timates involving deep space?

In other words, the universe is humongous. Who knows what kinds of wonders that are out there. We've barely scratched the surface.

I believe that's all we're ever going to be able to do. If you disagree, what methods do you believe are right around the corner to take a closer look at things that are thousands of light years away?

During the show, I thought to myself. If there was a God, and he created this really really really really big universe with all these wonders that are out there waiting for us to explore, why would you rather believe that His word only exist in a book?

I believe that book contains all I need to know concerning how to live my life to please God, how to relate to others, to manage finances, to decide how to vote concerning what I believe is best for the society that I live in, etc.

Why not embrace in a God that is bigger and more powerful than anything we can ever understand, you know, like the God that created this really really really really really big universe?

That's what creationists actually do. (I bolded your words that should tell you why they can do it without science.)

The more I think about it, the more logic tells me that creationists should be on the forefront of scientific discoveries.

Not at all, because science restricts itself to naturalistic rearrangement processes only. Those who control it don't even allow the exploration of the possibility of an intelligent designer. The human mind can't comprehend creation and destruction. Science tries to fit all of reality into rearrangement processes. Christianity is much more than that. The scientific community claims that it can't address anything to do with Christianity. (other than their belief that itís wrong) What could a Christian possibly learn about God from godless science?

God created the entire universe with all the principles and everything else that keeps it in place. We, as His children, should be out there finding out more of His creation instead of stifling scientific discoveries wherever possible.

Much of what passes for science today is actually atheism - a public establishment of it. That's the only thing (U.S.) creationists are attempting to stifle. Not necessarily in a religious interest, but in a constitutional interest.

If there is a God, His true bible exists in nature, not an ancient book that was written by people thousands of years ago.

I think it's disingenuous for someone who is interested in the exploration of nature, to claim that others can use nature to reinforce their belief in God, while you use nature to reinforce your belief that there probably isn't a God. If I'm wrong, make your case.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by yenmor, posted 07-08-2013 12:38 PM yenmor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-10-2013 7:56 PM marc9000 has not yet responded
 Message 11 by hooah212002, posted 07-10-2013 8:32 PM marc9000 has not yet responded
 Message 14 by yenmor, posted 07-10-2013 11:35 PM marc9000 has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15947
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 8 of 301 (702682)
07-10-2013 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by yenmor
07-08-2013 12:38 PM


Well, the Bible portrays a God who created a universe which doesn't exist. In order to believe in the Bible, they have to believe in that God; in order to believe in that God, they have to believe in that universe. It's not clear why they have to believe in the Bible, but it's obviously very important to them.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by yenmor, posted 07-08-2013 12:38 PM yenmor has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5530
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 9 of 301 (702686)
07-10-2013 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by yenmor
07-08-2013 12:38 PM


Why not embrace in a God that is bigger and more powerful than anything we can ever understand, you know, like the God that created this really really really really really big universe?

To be fair, there actually are many creationists who believe in a grand God. It's just that we usually don't call them "creationists". We normally only use that term for the crazy ones.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by yenmor, posted 07-08-2013 12:38 PM yenmor has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15947
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 10 of 301 (702688)
07-10-2013 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by marc9000
07-10-2013 7:15 PM


I think it gets a little vague when we claim to analyze something (glimmers of light) that took thousands or millions of years to reach us.

And yet statements about the universe based on looking at the universe are somewhat more likely to be reliable than statements based on ignoring it.

I believe that book contains all I need to know concerning how to live my life to please God ...

By performing animal sacrifice?

You are to slaughter the young bull before the Lord ... You are to wash the internal organs and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the Lord.

... how to relate to others ...

By hating your entire family?

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

... to manage finances ...

By complete fiscal imprudence?

Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? ... Take therefore no thought for the morrow ...

Do you do any of this stuff? OK, at least tell me you don't eat bacon.

Much of what passes for science today is actually atheism - a public establishment of it. That's the only thing (U.S.) creationists are attempting to stifle. Not necessarily in a religious interest, but in a constitutional interest.

It's mighty good of you to stick up for the Constitution. I particularly admire your relentless struggle to have the words IN GOD WE DON'T TRUST removed from our currency. The Constitution is sacrosanct, not least the clause forbidding Congress to establish irreligion ...

... oh, wait, it seems we don't live in Opposite World.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by marc9000, posted 07-10-2013 7:15 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 11 of 301 (702690)
07-10-2013 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by marc9000
07-10-2013 7:15 PM


As a creationist, I don't consider guess-timates involving thousands, or millions of light years as a science that is to be readily accepted and unquestioned. Science is supposed to be testable, repeatable, observable, falsifiable. I think it gets a little vague when we claim to analyze something (glimmers of light) that took thousands or millions of years to reach us.

Good thing none of that is true or else there would be a problem. Whew! The "guesstimate" yenmor spoke of was the number of stars in our galaxy, not the hodgepodge of wrongness you purported. The study of light and it's speed is very well documented and contains no guess work.

Nice try, though.

As an agnostic/atheist, are you never the slightest bit skeptical of secular guess-timates involving deep space?

As a christian, what does your god say about misrepresentation of others and lying? Based on creationists writing, I'd say he/she/it is all for it and commands it.

Not at all, because science restricts itself to naturalistic rearrangement processes only.

Creationists the world over have been emplored to provide a way to study the supernatural. You've all failed. Science studies what it CAN study and that is nature.

Those who control it don't even allow the exploration of the possibility of an intelligent designer.

That is a lie. As a matter of fact, the whole paragraph surrounding that is wrong and a lie.

Much of what passes for science today is actually atheism - a public establishment of it. That's the only thing (U.S.) creationists are attempting to stifle. Not necessarily in a religious interest, but in a constitutional interest.

Oh, look, another lie.


"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by marc9000, posted 07-10-2013 7:15 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Adminnemooseus, posted 07-10-2013 9:05 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3810
Joined: 09-26-2002
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 12 of 301 (702691)
07-10-2013 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by hooah212002
07-10-2013 8:32 PM


Please bring up the "niceness" level
I recently gave Bolder-Dash a 1 week suspension for stupid behavior. Thus I'm currently being extra sensitive about any of the evolution side also being jerks. You are the first example I've encountered, of such undesirable behavior.

Be nice.

Don't reply to this message at this topic. If anyone feels the must reply, track down that special topic for such things.

Adminnemooseus


Or something like that©.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by hooah212002, posted 07-10-2013 8:32 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25610
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 13 of 301 (702698)
07-10-2013 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by yenmor
07-08-2013 12:38 PM


During the show, I thought to myself. If there was a God, and he created this really really really really big universe with all these wonders that are out there waiting for us to explore, why would you rather believe that His word only exist in a book? Why not embrace in a God that is bigger and more powerful than anything we can ever understand, you know, like the God that created this really really really really really big universe?

But that is the one we embrace, the one who made all of it. Absurd there should be a question about that.

What does His having communicated to us in writing have to do with how big He is? He communicates through Nature too, but being fallen we can't be sure we're reading Nature accurately. That's why He kindly gave us a written testimony. In which, by the way, He informs us that Nature shows His character too. But you don't see Him there, do you? That's because you're fallen. We need the writings to help us see the reality of things.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by yenmor, posted 07-08-2013 12:38 PM yenmor has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 07-11-2013 12:30 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 17 by NoNukes, posted 07-11-2013 7:04 PM Faith has responded

    
yenmor
Member (Idle past 1130 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


(3)
Message 14 of 301 (702704)
07-10-2013 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by marc9000
07-10-2013 7:15 PM


marc9000 writes:

As an agnostic/atheist, are you never the slightest bit skeptical of secular guess-timates involving deep space?


Forgive my lack of humbleness. I have a BS in physics, BS in computer science, and a masters in structural engineering. I worked in research in astrophysics during my time in school. In other words, I've done some of the math behind these numbers. I actually understand what's involved for them to have come up with these numbers.

marc9000 writes:

I believe that's all we're ever going to be able to do. If you disagree, what methods do you believe are right around the corner to take a closer look at things that are thousands of light years away?


For now, none. Does this mean we shouldn't try?

Not at all, because science restricts itself to naturalistic rearrangement processes only. Those who control it don't even allow the exploration of the possibility of an intelligent designer. The human mind can't comprehend creation and destruction. Science tries to fit all of reality into rearrangement processes. Christianity is much more than that. The scientific community claims that it can't address anything to do with Christianity. (other than their belief that itís wrong) What could a Christian possibly learn about God from godless science?

Then could you cite a few scientific or technological advancements that are due directly to attributing the processes to a God actively participating in the process?

I think it's disingenuous for someone who is interested in the exploration of nature, to claim that others can use nature to reinforce their belief in God, while you use nature to reinforce your belief that there probably isn't a God. If I'm wrong, make your case.

I've spent a great deal of time reading and studying past achievements. What I've found is that attributing the limits of our knowledge to an all powerful magical being gets us no-where. Had Newton attributed gravity to God's magic, calculus would never have been invented. That's just one example.

Again, can you name us a few scientific or technological progress that were directly resulted from attributing some natural processes to God's magic?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by marc9000, posted 07-10-2013 7:15 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by marc9000, posted 07-11-2013 7:39 PM yenmor has not yet responded
 Message 19 by NoNukes, posted 07-11-2013 8:05 PM yenmor has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9750
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 15 of 301 (702789)
07-11-2013 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by yenmor
07-08-2013 12:38 PM


Not a choice
The more I think about it, the more logic tells me that creationists should be on the forefront of scientific discoveries. God created the entire universe with all the principles and everything else that keeps it in place. We, as His children, should be out there finding out more of His creation instead of stifling scientific discoveries wherever possible.

Creationist don't believe in a tiny deity by choice. They follow an interpretation of the Bible that says that modern science produces lies. Their universe was created a few thousand years ago. If light from distant objects appears to suggest something else, then the 'something else' and not the Bible is wrong.

As silly as that seems, it is not as silly as the premise of this thread.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ĎThat the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.í Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by yenmor, posted 07-08-2013 12:38 PM yenmor has not yet responded

    
1
23456
...
21NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017