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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 187 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 1 of 416 (703566)
07-25-2013 1:47 AM


Bs'd

The Christian messiah did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

I think this is a clear indication that he was not the messiah.

Here some examples:

Who and what is the messiah? Let us check according to the Holy Hebrew scriptures what the messiah is supposed to do. .......

Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."

Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.

Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.

In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.

Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."

When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.

.

Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.

Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.


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Adminnemooseus
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Message 2 of 416 (703568)
07-25-2013 2:21 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Faith
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Posts: 24398
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 3 of 416 (703571)
07-25-2013 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eliyahu
07-25-2013 1:47 AM


Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
The scriptures do in fact indicate two comings of Christ if you know how to read them properly. Even some Jewish commentators find two different Messiahs in the Hebrew scriptures, the Suffering Servant and the Warrior King, ben Joseph and ben David being the names they assigned these two anointed ones I think though I may not remember the names rightly. And some even considered that there might be three Messiahs. This is because the scriptures present different portraits of Him. (A book on Jewish Messianic teachings by Raphael Patai, a nonChristian Jew, is my main source for this information).

But nowhere is more than one Messiah ever hinted at in the scriptures. The best resolution of the different portraits is the one Christians teach, that rather than different Messiahs there is one Messiah who will come twice, first as the Suffering Servant who dies to pay for the sins of His people, and then at the end as the Warrior King who will take vengeance on His enemies and the enemies of His people.

When Jesus read Isaiah 61:1-2a in the synagogue and claimed that He was its fulfillment He gave a strong indication of this understanding of His mission:

Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Note that He stopped reading right after the line "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord" but the passage in Isaiah from which He was reading goes on: "and the day of vengeance of our God." This is understood in Christian theology to mean that Jesus was claiming only to fulfill the mission of God's grace at that time, but that when He comes again it will be as the executor of God's vengeance when He will destroy God's enemies.

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God ...

We are still in the time of grace, when people can still be saved by repentance and faith, but the time of vengeance can't be far off, when there is no more opportunity for salvation.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eliyahu, posted 07-25-2013 1:47 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 187 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 4 of 416 (703576)
07-25-2013 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
07-25-2013 3:44 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
Bs'd

How can I reply here with quote of previous message?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 07-25-2013 3:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 2855
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 5 of 416 (703580)
07-25-2013 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Eliyahu
07-25-2013 9:25 AM


Posting Tips
Eliyahu writes:

How can I reply here with quote of previous message?

I've stolen a nice thing one of the other posters here generally shows to new comers when he sees them:

... as you are new here, some posting tips:

type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:

quotes are easy

or type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:

quote:
quotes are easy

also check out (help) links on any formatting questions when in the reply window.

For other formatting tips see Posting Tips
For a quick overview see EvC Forum Primer
If you have problems with replies see Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0

(Stolen from RAZD)

You can also click on the "peek" button in the bottom right of any message and it will show you exactly what the person typed in order to get the display you see.

Welcome to EvC, it's a good time here. We don't have any lemonade to give you, though...

Eliyahu writes:

Bs'd

What does this mean? Blessed?

"B.S." has different meaning where I'm from...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Eliyahu, posted 07-25-2013 9:25 AM Eliyahu has responded

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 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-25-2013 10:11 AM Stile has not yet responded
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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11236
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 6 of 416 (703582)
07-25-2013 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Stile
07-25-2013 9:57 AM


Re: Posting Tips
Eliyahu writes:

Bs'd

What does this mean?

Its Jewish:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besiyata_Dishmaya


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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11236
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 7 of 416 (703584)
07-25-2013 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eliyahu
07-25-2013 1:47 AM


The Christian messiah did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

I think this is a clear indication that he was not the messiah.

Maybe the prophecies were wrong, no?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eliyahu, posted 07-25-2013 1:47 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 8 of 416 (703587)
07-25-2013 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eliyahu
07-25-2013 1:47 AM


a few possibilities.
Jesus is NOT the Jewish Messiah you're looking for. Move along.

Jesus will be the Jewish Messiah once He returns, kicks ass and takes names.

The Jews got the whole Messiah thing wrong.

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eliyahu, posted 07-25-2013 1:47 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 187 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 9 of 416 (703588)
07-25-2013 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
07-25-2013 3:44 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
quote:
The scriptures do in fact indicate two comings of Christ if you know how to read them properly. Even some Jewish commentators find two different Messiahs in the Hebrew scriptures, the Suffering Servant

Bs'd

There is no "suffering and dying messiah" in the Tanach.

quote:
and the Warrior King, ben Joseph and ben David being the names they assigned these two anointed ones I think though I may not remember the names rightly. And some even considered that there might be three Messiahs. This is because the scriptures present different portraits of Him. (A book on Jewish Messianic teachings by Raphael Patai, a nonChristian Jew, is my main source for this information).

But nowhere is more than one Messiah ever hinted at in the scriptures.


The scriptures are full of messiah's. You just have to know what is a messiah:

Messiah comes from the Hebrew word 'meshiach' which means 'anointed one' It was the custom to anoint kings with oil before they came to power. There were already many anointed kings in Jewish history. Read for instance I Samuel 9:27 to10:1; Here Saul is anointed by Samuel the prophet. And thereby he became a messiah, an anointed one, See Samuel 11:13 up to 12:3: Here in verse 3 king Saul is called G.ds anointed, in the Hebrew 'meshiach'. So also king Saul was a messiah. Look in I Samuel 16:12-13, here the prophet Samuel anoints David, the Hebrew verb for anointing is 'mashach', and he becomes an anointed one, as we can read in II Samuel 23:1; "David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed (in the Hebrew 'meshiach') of the G.d of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said; "

I Kings 1:39; "And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed (Hebrew verb 'mashach') Solomon. And they blew the trumpet, and all the people said; G.d save king Solomon." Also Solomon was an anointed one, or messiah: II Chronicles 6:42, here king Solomon prays: "O Lord turn not away the face of thine anointed, " In the Hebrew: 'meshiach'.

So now we know what is a messiah: An anointed king.

And there were many of those in history.

Eliyahu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 07-25-2013 3:44 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 12912
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 10 of 416 (703594)
07-25-2013 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
07-25-2013 3:44 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
Faith writes:

The scriptures do in fact indicate two comings of Christ if you know how to read them properly.


The scriptures also contain my phone number if you know how to read them properly (and if you already have the information that you want to "extract"). But if you actually read the scriptures, not so much.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 07-25-2013 3:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24398
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 11 of 416 (703596)
07-25-2013 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Eliyahu
07-25-2013 10:43 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
There is no "suffering and dying messiah" in the Tanach.

Isaiah 52 and 53. And I'll have to see if I can find a Jewish commentary that views those passages as related to the Messiah but I won't be able to do that until later.

Yes, I'm quite aware of how the term "Messiah" is derived, so that there are many "messiahs" in that small sense, but don't be so disingenuous as to try to deny that the Hebrew scriptures point to one particular Messiah, THE Anointed One of God. Orthodox Jews believe He is yet to come, no? We believe He came 2000 years ago and will come another time.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Eliyahu, posted 07-25-2013 1:15 PM Faith has responded
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 187 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 12 of 416 (703598)
07-25-2013 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
07-25-2013 12:40 PM


One messiah and one comming
quote:
Isaiah 52 and 53. And I'll have to see if I can find a Jewish commentary that views those passages as related to the Messiah but I won't be able to do that until later.

Bs'd

I don't want to see Jewish commentators who view those passages as speaking about the messiah.

What I want is solid arguments based not on commentators, but on the Tanach, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

Giving comments is something we all can and do. The value of that hovers around zero.

quote:
Yes, I'm quite aware of how the term "Messiah" is derived, so that there are many "messiahs" in that small sense, but don't be so disingenuous as to try to deny that the Hebrew scriptures point to one particular Messiah, THE Anointed One of God. Orthodox Jews believe He is yet to come, no? We believe He came 2000 years ago and will come another time.

Yes, we believe that THE messiah is still to come, and there will be only ONE of him.

And we'll know he is the messiah, by the fact that he is going to fulfill the messianic prophecies, something in which JC failed.

Eliyahu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 07-25-2013 12:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by PaulK, posted 07-25-2013 5:33 PM Eliyahu has responded
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 4:33 AM Eliyahu has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12563
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 13 of 416 (703606)
07-25-2013 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Eliyahu
07-25-2013 1:15 PM


Re: One messiah and one comming
My impression is that the Tanakh does not actually speak of The Messiah as such. Rather, The Messiah is a title applied to someone who will fulfil a number of prophecies, notably ruling over a restored Israel which will be acknowledged as God's chosen kingdom.

Accordingly any claim that any other prophecy is Messianic needs to show that it applies to the same person. Even the title messiah is insufficient, since there are any number of messiahs (the Persian emperor Cyrus being a significant example - Isaiah 45:1)

To answer the question in the OP, in my view the followers of Jesus started with the conviction that Jesus was The Messiah. When Jesus died some of them dealt with it by becoming more extreme and came up with the idea of the Second Coming to explain away Jesus' failure. This is not to say that they did not believe it - they did. But that doesn't make it anything more than a way of hiding from the truth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Eliyahu, posted 07-25-2013 1:15 PM Eliyahu has responded

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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 187 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 14 of 416 (703611)
07-26-2013 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by PaulK
07-25-2013 5:33 PM


Re: One messiah and one comming
quote:
My impression is that the Tanakh does not actually speak of The Messiah as such. Rather, The Messiah is a title applied to someone who will fulfil a number of prophecies, notably ruling over a restored Israel which will be acknowledged as God's chosen kingdom.

Bs'd

That's about it.

quote:
Accordingly any claim that any other prophecy is Messianic needs to show that it applies to the same person. Even the title messiah is insufficient, since there are any number of messiahs (the Persian emperor Cyrus being a significant example - Isaiah 45:1)

According to Christianity, the whole chapter of Isaiah 53 and the last verses of chapter 52, from verse 13, are talking about Jesus. Why do they think so? Because the NT says so, and because it fits so nicely with the Christian story about a suffering messiah. And what proof do the Christians have that the subject in Isaiah 53, the suffering servant, is the messiah?

Nothing.

There is not the slightest indication, let alone a proof, that the servant of God, mentioned in Isaiah 53, is the messiah.

In the authentic messianic prophecies there is always a sign that it talks about the messiah, the anointed king. ("messiah" means "anointed one") In the real messianic prophecies it speaks about a king, or about a ruler, or about a descendend of David, or about a descendend of Isai, the father of David. But here in Isaiah 53 is nothing like that. Also the word "messiah" is not used in Isaiah 53. There is not the slightest hint toward a messiah. It just speaks about the servant of God. And NOWHERE in Isaiah, NOWHERE in the whole Hebrew Bible, is the messiah ever referred to as "the servant of God". So Christianity is making up fairy tales here.

quote:
To answer the question in the OP, in my view the followers of Jesus started with the conviction that Jesus was The Messiah. When Jesus died some of them dealt with it by becoming more extreme and came up with the idea of the Second Coming to explain away Jesus' failure. This is not to say that they did not believe it - they did. But that doesn't make it anything more than a way of hiding from the truth.

That's probably the gist of it.

Eliyahu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by PaulK, posted 07-25-2013 5:33 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24398
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 15 of 416 (703612)
07-26-2013 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Eliyahu
07-25-2013 1:15 PM


The Suffering Servant messianic passages
I don't want to see Jewish commentators who view those passages as speaking about the messiah.

What I want is solid arguments based not on commentators, but on the Tanach, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

Possibly we can do both. You claim that Christians "made up" the Suffering Servant idea of the Messiah so it should be appropriate to point out that Jews have also regarded the Suffering Servant passages to be messianic.

The book I mentioned by Raphael Patai, The Messiah Texts, is a scholarly study of Jewish writings on the messianic passages in scripture, including such sources as the Babylonian Talmud, the Zohar and later rabbis such as R. Nahman, and many others. Patai is not a believer but a scholar who follows the modernist views of the Bible and is simply interested in how the "myths" about the Messiah were understood in various Jewish writings.

The Suffering Servant passages were definitely regarded as messianic in many of these sources. In his Introduction he writes of the "Deutero-Isaiah" passages about the Suffering Servant, as "describing the call, mission, sufferings, death and resurrection of this mysterious individual. ... the Aggada, the Talmudic legend, unhesitatingly identifies him with the Messiah and understands especially the descriptions of his sufferings as referring to Messiah ben Joseph..." [one of the two Messiahs that show up in the Jewish writings]

Patai points out at the beginning of his first chapter that Jewish and some Christian scholars regard the Suffering Servant passages as referring to Israel as a whole. "Yet these same passages became in Talmudic times identified with the Messianic theme, and so they have remained in Jewish folk consciousness throughout the ages." He goes on to say the idea is developed from the Isaiah passages about the Suffering Servant in the Talmud, the Midrash and the Zohar.

The point of all this of course, again, is simply to show that Christians did not make up the idea of the Messiah as the Suffering Servant, but that it was understood to be messianic by many Jewish sources as well.

You say in your answer to PaulK above:

According to Christianity, the whole chapter of Isaiah 53 and the last verses of chapter 52, from verse 13, are talking about Jesus. Why do they think so? Because the NT says so, and because it fits so nicely with the Christian story about a suffering messiah. And what proof do the Christians have that the subject in Isaiah 53, the suffering servant, is the messiah?

The writings of the various Jewish interpretations of the scriptures ought to go some way toward showing that it isn't only the New Testament (whose writers are almost all Jews anyway) but many nonChristian Jews who find those passages to be messianic. That may not be proof but then how do you prove something that's a matter of interpretation anyway? The fact that it is shared by many serious Jewish interpreters of the scriptures ought to carry a great deal of weight.

For reference here are the Suffering Servant passages:

Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
Isa 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
Isa 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for [that] which had not been told them shall they see; and [that] which they had not heard shall they consider.
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Hard NOT to see Jesus in this passage I would think.

There are other passages in Isaiah that are understood to be messianic and are about the Suffering Servant:

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isa 42:8 I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Isa 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Isa 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
Isa 49:4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: [yet] surely my judgment [is] with the LORD, and my work with my God.
Isa 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb [to be] his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Isa 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, [and] his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, [and] the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
Isa 49:8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
Isa 49:9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that [are] in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures [shall be] in all high places.

Isa 50:4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to [him that is] weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned.
Isa 50:5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back.
Isa 50:6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.
Isa 50:7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.
Isa 50:8 [He is] near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who [is] mine adversary? let him come near to me.
Isa 50:9 Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who [is] he [that] shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.

In verse 3 of Isaiah 49 Israel is addressed, and as I pointed out above some think all these messianic passages refer to Israel as the Suffering Servant. That looks like quite a stretch to me of course. Some Christian theologies say that Jesus stands for Israel so that the verse is addressed to Him anyway. The rest of the passage certainly applies to Him.

You also said that there is nothing about a dying Messiah in scripture, but there is, in Daniel 9:24-26, which Patai also references, and this passage speaks explicitly of the Messiah:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

This is also the famous passage by which we can calculate the exact timing of Jesus' riding the donkey into Jerusalem from a particular decree to rebuild Jerusalem after the Babylonian Captivity.

{By the way, you mention in your OP Jesus riding a donkey as if that means nothing, but that's the only time he rode a donkey that we know of and his riding that animal into Jerusalem was symbolic of a King announcing that He comes in peace, in the context of Middle Eastern customs.)

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Eliyahu, posted 07-25-2013 1:15 PM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2013 9:27 AM Faith has responded
 Message 17 by Eliyahu, posted 07-26-2013 9:52 AM Faith has responded
 Message 18 by Eliyahu, posted 07-26-2013 10:04 AM Faith has responded
 Message 359 by Davidjay, posted 04-11-2017 1:18 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
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