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Author Topic:   What if this forum was dominated by creationists?
yenmor
Member (Idle past 1188 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 1 of 86 (707661)
09-30-2013 3:09 AM


As an experiment, I recently joined a tech forum that was against what I believed in. Yeah, believe it or not there are tech forums that have endless debates not too dissimilar from the EvC debate.

The first thing I noticed was that members of this forum would write out very general and sensationalist statements that are just plain wrong. And it's not even my opinion. It's just a fact. I started engaging in a couple debates with them. One member wrote in all caps that the system I was speaking of did not work at all. I asked him to be more specific, and again in all caps he said the system did not work at all. So, for a third time, I asked him for specific examples of the said system not working and crashing. That message was deleted by a mod and I was banned for 3 days.

When I came back, I engaged in another conversation. It was obvious by this time that I was the only person that spoke with a voice of dissension. Same guy started making very general statements in all caps, and again I asked him to be more specific . I after 3 posts of this, I was banned for 10 days. Actually, I'm currently in the 10 days period. The moderator who banned me wrote a lengthy post arguing against what I said and then banned me. I'm guessing he didn't want me to respond.

I lurked a little bit and could not find any other post that was for what I was supporting. Seems like members of that forum are all one voice and that they are very uncomfortable with differing opinion.

Believe it or not, I lurk on here quite often. I'm a long time atheist and believer in evolution. Used to be a creationist but I grew out of it after I learned a few things in school.

That said, it is very easy to get carried away when pretty much everyone around you agrees with you. The forum I was speaking of is an extreme example of when the entire forum has been taken over by one side of the debate, and all voices of opposition are banned regularly.

Seeing how few creationists there are on here, is it possible that the good inhabitants of this place are slowly slipping down the rabbit hole?


Replies to this message:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3538
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 5.1


(4)
Message 2 of 86 (707663)
09-30-2013 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by yenmor
09-30-2013 3:09 AM


A forum dominated by creationists
http://evolutionfairytale.com/forum/

Possibly the finest collection of heads up asses you will ever find.

Moose


Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith

"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien

"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1753
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 3 of 86 (707668)
09-30-2013 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by yenmor
09-30-2013 3:09 AM


Come one come all
I can see differences of opinion regarding what might or might not work regarding programs or technical problems but isn't there eventually evidence to resolve the issue? Are these folks denying the evidence in the same way that creationists do? Do they have vested interests in the outcome of the discussions?

What I see at EvC is that it is reason, logic and evidence that lead the way. If someone says something that is wrong they will be called on it regardless of which side of the debate they are on. Science has a self-correcting mechanism that works by praising those who find mistakes instead of castigating them for their descent. I don't think there is anyone here who would not welcome another dissenting opinion. The whole point here is to see how your opinions hold up.

I suspect that this site is predominately populated by rationalists because of the uncomfortable feeling caused in the creationist's mind when they are confronted with endless streams of undeniable facts and not because creationists are banned from expressing themselves.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by yenmor, posted 09-30-2013 3:09 AM yenmor has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by yenmor, posted 09-30-2013 12:42 PM ProtoTypical has responded
 Message 82 by Minnemooseus, posted 05-14-2014 9:00 PM ProtoTypical has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5533
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 4 of 86 (707671)
09-30-2013 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by yenmor
09-30-2013 3:09 AM


As an experiment, I recently joined a tech forum that was against what I believed in. Yeah, believe it or not there are tech forums that have endless debates not too dissimilar from the EvC debate.

No link provided? Therefore no evidence of your assertion.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by yenmor, posted 09-30-2013 3:09 AM yenmor has responded

Replies to this message:
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yenmor
Member (Idle past 1188 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 5 of 86 (707688)
09-30-2013 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by nwr
09-30-2013 9:12 AM


Well, it's not like I'm proposing a new scientific theory LOL.

Sorry, no link. I would like to keep a level of anonymity on here. I am an engineer and programmer. Given enough info, you will be able to figure out who I am.

I'm a young guy still trying to find a firm footing in this world. I know you're an established professional, so you have nothing to worry about. But guys like me get fired because of a single sentence on the internet, and that's the last thing I need. This is not to mention the fact that I live with another man, and I work in a somewhat homophobic profession.

Anyway, you don't have to look far for a forum that's been taken over by one side of the debate. Moose provided a link to one such site.

Don't you ever wonder if the same thing has happened to this place? We are, after all, the worst evaluator of ourselves. People with stinky breaths don't think they have stinky breaths. People who are ignorant rarely ever notice that they are ignorant. I think there's a study of it out somewhere... here.

PS - You live within driving distance from me. Is that you in the avatar? I'll say hi the next time I drive by your town. My job requires me to drive all over the state on occasion.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 662
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 6 of 86 (707689)
09-30-2013 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by yenmor
09-30-2013 3:09 AM


The forum I was speaking of is an extreme example of when the entire forum has been taken over by one side of the debate, and all voices of opposition are banned regularly.

What you describe is essentially when fanaticism takes hold. While we are used to that being constrained to religious venues, it can manifest just about anywhere. Look at the 9/11 Truthers or the Birthers to get an example of blind adherence to an opinion clouding one's judgement.

With that being said, EVC seems to go out of its way to be as accommodating as possible. I'm new to posting here, but I have been a lurker for some time. The main rules of conduct here are generally staying on topic and keeping the insults to a minimum.

Now if the EVC was dominated by Creationists, I would argue that you would no longer see the kind of discourse that exists here. Instead, it would eventually morph into a more dogmatic posting style where opposing (i.e. evolutionist viewpoints) would eventually be deleted and the posters banned.

A good frame of reference is Conservapedia, the 'counter' to Wikipedia. They heavily sensor the content and ban edits from those individuals who do not meet the status quo.


"Our future lies not in our dogmatic past, but in our enlightened present"

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ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 7 of 86 (707690)
09-30-2013 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by yenmor
09-30-2013 3:09 AM


yenmor writes:

The forum I was speaking of is an extreme example of when the entire forum has been taken over by one side of the debate, and all voices of opposition are banned regularly.


EvC hasn't been "taken over" by one side; it has been abandoned by the other side. That might be because creationism as a movement is practically dead (God willing).

Or it might be because Percy runs a pretty tight ship when it comes to providing evidence for claims. Of course, science is a tight ship.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by yenmor, posted 09-30-2013 3:09 AM yenmor has not yet responded

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 1188 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 8 of 86 (707692)
09-30-2013 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ProtoTypical
09-30-2013 8:37 AM


Re: Come one come all
ProtoTypical writes:

I can see differences of opinion regarding what might or might not work regarding programs or technical problems...


You have no idea. I'm pretty sure it's the same in every profession, every field of human endeavor. That's how progress is made. One person or one group comes up with a method. Another comes up with another method. And another. Before long, we have dozens of "schools of thought" on the subject matter. Over time, these usually boil down to 2 or 3 major ones with the occasional oddballs.

In France for example, there are whole "schools of thought" on how to best eat oyster. You can occasionally see heated debates between oyster eaters on how to best prepare it.

Back in the old days before the internet, such debates would show up as books and academic papers. Now that we have the internet, everyone can chime in. The result is factions on the internet. And every once in a while, one such faction manages to capture an entire forum. This is when members of one faction has all the moderator positions and all voices of opposition are regularly piled on and even banned.

Regarding the tech forum I was banned from, I have no doubt that they meant no ill will to me. And that's the problem with one-minded group thinking. When you surround yourself only with voices you agree with, then it's very easy to see differing opinion as a personal attack.

I swear on my mother's grave, all I did was keep insisting for that guy that wrote everything in all caps to provide some specific examples to prove his point, which he continued to refuse. His last post before I got banned said that even if I proved him wrong he would still not change his mind. The message for explanation to why I was banned for 10 days was because I was attacking a member personally. Very clear symptom of group think and group monopoly of a forum space. All voices of opposition are considered personal attacks.

I haven't decided yet if this forum is slipping into this abyss I've been talking about. Since there are so few creationists on here... what do you think?


This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 5989
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 9 of 86 (707693)
09-30-2013 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by yenmor
09-30-2013 12:42 PM


Re: Come one come all
Creationists here are given tremendous leeway, far more than non-creationists are.
This message is a reply to:
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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 662
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 10 of 86 (707695)
09-30-2013 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by yenmor
09-30-2013 12:42 PM


Re: Come one come all
yenmor writes:

Regarding the tech forum I was banned from, I have no doubt that they meant no ill will to me. And that's the problem with one-minded group thinking. When you surround yourself only with voices you agree with, then it's very easy to see differing opinion as a personal attack.

As someone who also works in the software industry, I actually see this problem from time to time. It becomes especially prevalent with certain engineering types that get married to one technology to the point where it is literally sacrosanct to them. Sadly, this also leads to narrow mindedness as well as stagnation with the software itself, since the individuals who are blinded by their view cannot see the more simplistic solution and will instead attempt to pigeon-hole their technology into the problem at hand.

Generally speaking, this is rare. Most engineers (including myself) try to be relatively open minded. And since we, at a core level, love to tinker, I still like to experiment with different technologies just to see what is available that might make my job easier.


"Our future lies not in our dogmatic past, but in our enlightened present"

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nwr
Member
Posts: 5533
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 11 of 86 (707700)
09-30-2013 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by yenmor
09-30-2013 12:29 PM


Anyway, you don't have to look far for a forum that's been taken over by one side of the debate. Moose provided a link to one such site.

However, you wrote of a "tech forum" and nobody (except perhaps a creationist) would use that term to describe evolutionfairytale.com.

I participate in some tech forums. Most of the heated debates are in political subforums.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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yenmor
Member (Idle past 1188 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 12 of 86 (707705)
09-30-2013 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by nwr
09-30-2013 1:11 PM


I see. Sorry, but I don't really participate on forums that much. I have no idea what people's regular terms are on internet forums. And I generally use common terms instead of specialized terms. For example, why do I call myself a programmer instead of developer? The popular... mainstream word these days is developer. Well, because in the real world, when I say developer people think of land developer, like builder of houses. And why do I call my desktop apps programs? Because in the real world people think of apps as iPhone apps, aka games. In the real world, people have associated the word app with fun and games.

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.


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frako
Member
Posts: 2705
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 13 of 86 (707733)
09-30-2013 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Minnemooseus
09-30-2013 4:11 AM


Re: A forum dominated by creationists
LOl i registered waiting for approval from admin before i can post.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

Click if you dare!


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ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1753
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 14 of 86 (707750)
09-30-2013 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by yenmor
09-30-2013 12:42 PM


Re: Come one come all
His last post before I got banned said that even if I proved him wrong he would still not change his mind.

Sounds like a creationist tactic for ensuring victory no matter what.

I haven't decided yet if this forum is slipping into this abyss I've been talking about. Since there are so few creationists on here... what do you think?

Moderation is always a challenge and I think they do a good job here at being fair. There is a list somewhere of all the people who have been banned and why. I don't think that there are any on that list that shouldn't be. There just aren't that many people up to the challenge of defending creationism against the evidence of evolution.

There is the problem of dogpiling in some cases. Comes with a public forum I guess. They have a good feature here for one on one debate although it doesn't get used much. I am not sure what else could be done to make this site any more accessible and open and even handed.

I would challenge you to go to Evolutionfairytale and try to engage in a debate. I give frako about 3 posts to banishment.


This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 5989
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 15 of 86 (707752)
09-30-2013 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ProtoTypical
09-30-2013 9:29 PM


Re: Come one come all
Creationists want to avoid evidence at all costs.

The ones who come here, and last a while, are an exceptional group.

Most creationists can't stand the onslaught of evidence that is sent their way, and leave rather than face it.

Those who stay seem absolutely impervious to evidence.

As Heinlein noted, "Belief gets in the way of learning."

(Hey, that would make a great tagline!)


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers


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