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Author Topic:   Why "YEC" Creationism is BAD for America
RAZD
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Posts: 19220
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 1 of 179 (710800)
11-10-2013 6:46 PM


In this thread I propose to discuss why "creationism" in general, and "Young Earth Creationism (YEC)" in particular are BAD for the US.

Reason #1: It interferes with the proper education of young people, both in terms of rational thinking and in terms of scientific literacy.

Reason #2: It interferes with the supposedly informed behavior of elected officials, at the local, state and national levels, both in terms of rational thinking and in terms of scientific literacy.

The earth is very old -- over 4.5 billion years old -- according to objective empirical evidence and sound, validated scientific processes. (1)

There was no world wide flood (WWF) -- according to objective empirical evidence from genetics that show no universal "bottleneck" of every single species living or extinct at any singular time in the natural history of life on earth. (2)

Anyone who claims to believe otherwise is, to borrow from Dawkin's, either

  1. stupid -- unable to understand the evidence, or
  2. ignorant -- unaware of the massive amount of evidence for this, or
  3. misinformed -- taught false information (see (3) definition #2 below), usually by a "trusted" source, or
  4. deluded -- developed a false belief on their own (see (3) definition #3 below), for reasons of their own, or
  5. insane -- clinging to a belief that has been falsified by evidence (see (3) definition #4 below), or
  6. malicious -- lying in order to delude others.

Why is this BAD?

It seems rather obvious to me that any teaching in schools that is based on stupid, ignorant, misinformed, deluded, insane or malicious information is bad education, leading to misinformed or deluded students at best. Certainly this is not appropriate for education in a "leading" country.

It also seems rather obvious to me that any governmental decisions, whether at local, state or national levels, based on stupid, ignorant, misinformed, deluded, insane or malicious information is a bad decision.

Symptomatic of this in the US is the degree of Climate Change Denial by members of congress, based on false beliefs that are interfering with rational action regarding this pending massive change to the world as a whole.

Perhaps there should be a scientific literacy test for government representatives ...

Enjoy.

References:

  1. ) See Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 for some of the evidence that refutes a Young Earth.
  2. ) See No genetic bottleneck proves no global flood for discussion of this evidence.
  3. ) de•lu•sion -noun (Based on the Random House Dictionary, Random House, Inc. 2013. )
    1. an act or instance of deluding.
    2. the state of being deluded.
    3. a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur.
    4. Psychiatry: a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.

Edited by RAZD, : posted before complete


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Stile, posted 11-11-2013 10:38 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 5 by Diomedes, posted 11-11-2013 10:51 AM RAZD has responded
 Message 7 by MiguelG, posted 11-11-2013 11:15 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 8 by AZPaul3, posted 11-12-2013 3:29 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 11-14-2013 10:38 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 16 by ICANT, posted 11-15-2013 1:01 AM RAZD has responded
 Message 35 by marc9000, posted 11-16-2013 7:53 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 81 by shalamabobbi, posted 12-03-2013 2:07 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 84 by Jaf, posted 02-06-2014 7:42 PM RAZD has responded

  
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Message 3 of 179 (710803)
11-11-2013 9:44 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Why "YEC" Creationism is BAD for America thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Stile
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Posts: 3036
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(3)
Message 4 of 179 (710815)
11-11-2013 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
11-10-2013 6:46 PM


Bad YECs, bad!
Very bad, yes.

RAZD writes:

It interferes with the proper education of young people

It can even completely stop the proper education of people.

Creationism/YEC teaches people to stop learning and thinking and simply accept the answers that are provided (claimed to be from God and the Bible).

Real education should never stop.
It's not just for young people
It's an ongoing process that continually adds information as you learn more things.

Ideas and concepts are adjusted to work with all the information we can obtain.
This way you'll never, ever end up in a situation where you feel embarrassed about being wrong.
Being wrong just means you haven't received the information yet... therefore you never had the chance to update your concepts about the matter.

Learning ends when you get all the information. About everything. Everywhere. At all times.
...good luck with that.

Having static, final concepts about things will only ever lead to failure. You will eventually run into new information that doesn't quite jive with the idea you think you understood. The creationist will always be embarrassed when this happens because they are not allowed to adjust their ideas to the new information. As far as they are concerned... they already have all the information. About everything. Everwhere. At all times.
...fat chance. Did you really think that was possible?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 11-10-2013 6:46 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

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Diomedes
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Posts: 668
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 4.2


(2)
Message 5 of 179 (710816)
11-11-2013 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
11-10-2013 6:46 PM


I would go further and also state that it undermines our standing in the world and increases the likelihood that foreign nations will move further ahead on a competitive level as it pertains to new innovations.

One side bar: with regards to politicians. In my personal opinion, a scientific literacy test is irrelevant mainly due to the fact that the majority of politicians, even those that supposedly adhere to these dogmatic philosophies are doing so strictly because it garners them votes. I have no doubt in my mind that most do not share these beliefs and if the pendulum swung in the opposite direction, they would immediately switch sides if it was politically convenient.

There are a few exceptions: Gohmert from Texas and Bachmann from Minnesota actually do believe this nonsense. However, they are easily placed in the 'Totally Batshit' camp and very few individuals take them seriously except their local constituents, most of which likely have limited to no education.


"Our future lies not in our dogmatic past, but in our enlightened present"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 11-10-2013 6:46 PM RAZD has responded

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19220
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 6 of 179 (710829)
11-11-2013 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Diomedes
11-11-2013 10:51 AM


One side bar: with regards to politicians. In my personal opinion, a scientific literacy test is irrelevant mainly due to the fact that the majority of politicians, even those that supposedly adhere to these dogmatic philosophies are doing so strictly because it garners them votes. I have no doubt in my mind that most do not share these beliefs and if the pendulum swung in the opposite direction, they would immediately switch sides if it was politically convenient.

Which speaks to the honesty of the politician, rather than his knowledge. It also speaks to his willingness to be "bought" to get elected rather than standing on principle.

There are a few exceptions: Gohmert from Texas and Bachmann from Minnesota actually do believe this nonsense. However, they are easily placed in the 'Totally Batshit' camp and very few individuals take them seriously except their local constituents, most of which likely have limited to no education.

And all the other wing-nuts that talk about women and reproduction in the bizarre and twisted ways we have seen, and this applies to the whole issue of abortion and women's rights being affected by false beliefs.

Not just Gohmert and Bachmann, but virtually every Tea Party member ...

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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MiguelG
Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 59
From: Australia
Joined: 12-08-2004


(1)
Message 7 of 179 (710868)
11-11-2013 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
11-10-2013 6:46 PM


Other Reasons (and not just bad for America...)
Hi Razd,

Inculcation of young people in a myth set which, by definition, suppresses critical thinking is definitely bad.

In addition to scientific illiteracy, YEC also promotes historical illiteracy given that the pseudo-hitory promoted by YECists flies in the face of general human history as it has been discovered, interpreted and corroborated by multiple lines of inquiry from many nations the world over.

Knowledge has never been, and never will be a 'democratic' endeavour. Individuals are not entitled to have their subjective dogmas viewed as facts, nor are these dogmas immune to logical criticism.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 11-10-2013 6:46 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


(1)
Message 8 of 179 (710872)
11-12-2013 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
11-10-2013 6:46 PM


The worst thing about YEC is that it seeks to expose the scientific cabal at work in this world to wrench the minds of the young people away from the light of salvation in god to our dark and evil atheist ways.

Imagine what would happen if the true goals of science were to become known. No longer could we rule this world with our god-hating atheist technologies. The largess that society now lavishes upon our labs under the guise of research would be exposed for its fraud. All those mansions, the porsches, the parties and the women ... all gone.

Worst of all, no longer would we be free to gather in our lab coats in our satanic covens of atheism at our scientific conferences and there to roast and consume the flesh of those tender christian babies! Horrors!

This cannot be allowed. We must continue to assure that our controlling devices reach the hands and minds of their children. We must push even harder to have our demonic faith, Evolution, and our own god, Darwin (PBUH), central and exclusive in their schools with no prayers allowed to any other deities but ourselves.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


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NoNukes
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Posts: 10062
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 9 of 179 (710887)
11-12-2013 10:37 AM


I think the problems with Creation Science are well overstated in the posts here with the possible exception of AZPaul3's comment. Nobody cares what Creationist think, and generally when even a prominent US official rants about the earth being only 6000 years old, or the theory of evolution being a plot from Hell, the ridicule seems to land only on the ranter. There are plenty of counter examples to the idea the Americans are idiots. At least at present.

And so far, at least, there hasn't been much of a problem keeping Creation Science out of public k-12 education, and ghettoizing it to home schools and Bible Colleges.

Until that changes, Creation Science does most of its harm to the cause of the advancement of Christianity. It is generally harmless to America.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-14-2013 5:06 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 37 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 10 of 179 (711060)
11-14-2013 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by NoNukes
11-12-2013 10:37 AM


Nobody cares what Creationist think, and generally when even a prominent US official rants about the earth being only 6000 years old, or the theory of evolution being a plot from Hell, the ridicule seems to land only on the ranter.

Seeing that the thread involves why creationism is bad for America and that the vast majority of Americans believe in creation, your statements, as usual, are idiotic. The same would go for evolution

Until that changes, Creation Science does most of its harm to the cause of the advancement of Christianity. It is generally harmless to America.

And just when i think you cant make an even more ignorant comment, you surprise me with yet another one

Creationism is an intrical part of Christianity if we go by the NT and not the highly skilled scholars of the jesus seminar, or other such dependable people

seriously fellas, do ever try to use even a small part of correct reasoning ability. I usually quit posting on a thread, due to the fact that there is no intllectual challenge at all

Gives us a break please

Dawn Bertot


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by NoNukes, posted 11-12-2013 10:37 AM NoNukes has responded

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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10062
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 11 of 179 (711066)
11-14-2013 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dawn Bertot
11-14-2013 5:06 PM


Seeing that the thread involves why creationism is bad for America and that the vast majority of Americans believe in creation, your statements, as usual, are idiotic. The same would go for evolution

No Bertot. The vast majority of people outside of the United States do not ridicule people who believe in evolution.

Welcome back. I hope you'll have some time to post here more often.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26604
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 179 (711080)
11-14-2013 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
11-10-2013 6:46 PM


Your opinions don't really count
Reason #1: It interferes with the proper education of young people, both in terms of rational thinking and in terms of scientific literacy.

It might help if you had some statistics to support your claim that creationism is bad for American education rather than your own opinions about the Flood and other Creationist arguments.

There is no evidence whatever that rational thinking is adversely affected by being taught creationism.

I know some Christian families homeschool because they don't want evolution taught to their children, but homeschooling generally produces high achievement and successful people contrary to what those of your opinions would expect. How many of the homeschooled are Christians who insist on Creationism I didn't research, but I do know personally of homeschooling families whose offspring were taught creationism and are doing extremely well in college.

I also don't know exactly how Creationism is taught in those contexts unfortunately, but apparently neither do you. What you get here at EvC is a lot of us who like to think about the issues and you clearly find our reasoning deficient in this context, but our views are not what is taught.

My guess is that good general science is taught to Christian homeschoolers, because despite the false idea that is so popular here, science and evolution are NOT synonymous. And these students do well with it when they leave home.

Here's some research on the achievements of homeschoolers.

This next story on the other hand suggests that there's a lot that's wrong with American education that has nothing to do with creationism: Boy with D and C on report card is "honor" student, the sort of thing that must be attributed to "liberal" stupidity that wants everybody to FEEL they do well without regard to how well they actually do. THAT has been a HUGE and growing problem with American education over the last five or so decades.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Pressie, posted 11-14-2013 11:36 PM Faith has responded
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1826
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 13 of 179 (711083)
11-14-2013 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
11-14-2013 10:38 PM


Re: Your opinions don't really count
This one was very humorous. Nothing like a bit of humour early in the morning!

Here's some research on the achievements of homeschoolers.

A person starts an organization; publishes a magazine he calls a journal; then pretends that the articles written in it are scientific.

I think weve heard that before somewhere. What was he called again? Oh, yeah. Henry Morris.

Creationism is very detrimental to society. Everywhere.

As far as I can remember, a statement signed by those American Scientific Nobel Laureates a few years ago read something like this:

Teaching religious ideas mislabeled as science is detrimental to scientific education: It sets up a false conflict between science and religion, misleads our youth about the nature of scientific inquiry, and thereby compromises our ability to respond to the problems of an increasingly technological world. Our capacity to cope with problems of food production, health care, and even national defense will be jeopardized if we deliberately strip our citizens of the power to distinguish between the phenomena of nature and supernatural articles of faith. "Creation-science" simply has no place in the public-school science classroom.

A person called Faith is a prime example of why creationism is detrimental to the whole world. Faith doesn't even know how to start figuring out what a reliable source is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 11-14-2013 10:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 11-15-2013 12:03 AM Pressie has responded
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26604
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 14 of 179 (711084)
11-15-2013 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Pressie
11-14-2013 11:36 PM


Re: Your opinions don't really count
If you don't like the information I found then produce some other statistics. YOUR opinions are also worthless.
This message is a reply to:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1826
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 15 of 179 (711085)
11-15-2013 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
11-15-2013 12:03 AM


Re: Your opinions don't really count
Yes, I know. Everyone's opinion is worthless.

That's the strong point of the scientific method; it removes opinions and deals with evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 11-15-2013 12:03 AM Faith has responded

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 16 of 179 (711088)
11-15-2013 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
11-10-2013 6:46 PM


Hi RAZD,

RAZD writes:

In this thread I propose to discuss why "creationism" in general, and "Young Earth Creationism (YEC)" in particular are BAD for the US.

I agree that what YEC's teach about creation is false and does not even come close to what the Bible teaches about creation.

But if I remember you and just about every poster on EvC believes in creation.

I believe I am the only one who is on record as stating that the universe has always existed in some form.

Those who believe in the BBT believes in creation as the universe had a beginning to exist thus it requires a creation.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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