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Author Topic:   The Divine signature in the Torah
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 418 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 1 of 139 (721234)
03-05-2014 12:52 PM


Bs'd

Some people doubt the fact that the Torah is of divine origin.

Fortunately, for those we have the divine signature in the Torah, something that is totally unique to the Torah, namely the codes woven into the Torah.

They have been the subject of much debate, books have been written about them, people tried to debunk them, they have been published in high grade peer reviewed scientific journals like for instance "Statistical Science", people tried to debunk them in that self same journal, but when everything is said and done, one conclusion is inescapable, the codes exist.

This can be checked by everybody who takes a few minutes to check them out. Hebrew texts of the Torah are available online, the Hebrew alphabet can be found in many places, for instance here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_alphabet, and that is enough to see the codes for yourself.

For instance, the Torah starts with the word bereshiet, which means in the beginning. The last letter of that word is a tav, the Hebrew equivalent of the English T. When we skip from that tav 49 letters after it, (49 being 7 x 7, and 7 is a special number in Judaism) then we get a waav, a W, which in some cases is used to indicate a vowel, an oa like in boat, or an oo like in book.
Again skip 49 letters after that waav and we get a reesh, an R, and again with a skip of 49 we get a hey, an H.
Together that makes T-O-R-H, = Torah.

The same thing we see in the second book of the Torah, Exodus. There, from the first tav jumping 49 letters, we get again Torah.

In the fourth book we see Torah with the same skip, but now spelled backwards: H-R-O-T. And in the fifth book, Deuteronomy, we again see the word Torah spelled backwards, from a hey in the beginning of the chapter, and from there every 49th letter.

So in the first two books we see Torah spelled straight, and in the last two of the five books of the Torah we see Torah spelled backwards. And in the third, the middle book, we don't see Torah encoded.

However, wat we see there, from the first yot, with a skip of seven, is the four-lettered name of God Y-H-W-H.

So the words Torah encoded in the first two and the last two books of the Torah, are facing the name of God.

Another interesting easy to check code is in the beginning of Genesis 2, this text is recited by every religious Jew on Friday night, for the sanctification of the shabbat. Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
When from the first yot in this text you count seven letters, and then again seven, and again, then you get Y-S-R-A-L = ISRAEL.

There is no debate necessary about these codes, because everybody can check them out, they are there. They are a fact.

And of course there are much deeper, longer, and more mind blowing codes.

The Torah codes just refuse to die. Peer reviewed articles keep on being published about them. They are here to stay.



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

Replies to this message:
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 Message 9 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-05-2014 10:46 PM Eliyahu has responded
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AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1829
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2 of 139 (721236)
03-05-2014 1:12 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the The Divine signature in the Torah thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3951
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 3 of 139 (721241)
03-05-2014 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eliyahu
03-05-2014 12:52 PM


With the right 'code' you can get it to say anything.

And if your god is so brilliant why did he piss about in code rather than writing out exactly what he meant?

God writes:

Deuteronomy 4:2 "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

Mean anything?

Edited by Larni, :


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eliyahu, posted 03-05-2014 12:52 PM Eliyahu has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by NoNukes, posted 03-05-2014 2:06 PM Larni has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 4 of 139 (721245)
03-05-2014 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Larni
03-05-2014 1:43 PM


They have been the subject of much debate, books have been written about them, people tried to debunk them, they have been published in high grade peer reviewed scientific journals like for instance "Statistical Science", people tried to debunk them in that self same journal, but when everything is said and done, one conclusion is inescapable, the codes exist.

How about a pointer to this stuff.

Claims of this type, if they are not to be dismissed as numerology at best, have a high threshold to meet before they will be considered credible.

Given that we are in the science forums, I would have expected that the vetting process would be a little heavier on the evidence side.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Larni, posted 03-05-2014 1:43 PM Larni has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


(2)
Message 5 of 139 (721246)
03-05-2014 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eliyahu
03-05-2014 12:52 PM


A Lie That Won't Die.

You continue to misrepresent the truth. You lie.

quote:
For example, Barry Simon of the Caltech mathematics department has shown that any sufficiently large text will have similar letter patterns in it. Famously, the same algorithms used in the Bible Codes yielded similarly prophetic results when used on Hebrew translations of War and Peace.

quote:
Indeed, when, in 1997, popular author Michael Drosnin (who wrote a book on the subject) challenged critics to find the same prophecy regarding the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin in Moby Dick as Bible Codes folks had found in the Bible, Australian computer scientist Brendan McKay did just that, and for good measure he found letter arrangements predicting the assassinations of Trotsky, Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr.

In other words, the Bible Codes are bunk.


You ignore the overwhelming body of evidence that your bible codes are false and can be duplicated in many other works your god had nothing to do in creating ... unless you think both Melville and Tolstoy are gods.

You lie. Why? Is your faith that weak?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eliyahu, posted 03-05-2014 12:52 PM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Eliyahu, posted 03-05-2014 4:59 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 418 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 6 of 139 (721256)
03-05-2014 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by AZPaul3
03-05-2014 2:24 PM


You ignore the overwhelming body of evidence that your bible codes are false and can be duplicated in many other works your god had nothing to do in creating ... unless you think both Melville and Tolstoy are gods.

Bs'd

Please show me that "overwhelming body of evidence".

I have shown you the codes, they are there for everybody to see.

Now show me comparable codes in any other text.



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2014 2:24 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2014 6:13 PM Eliyahu has responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5299
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(2)
Message 7 of 139 (721260)
03-05-2014 5:17 PM


Does a bereshiet in the woods?

That is the more serious question.


    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


(2)
Message 8 of 139 (721264)
03-05-2014 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Eliyahu
03-05-2014 4:59 PM


This is not real
You didn't even bother with the source I provided, did you.

Here's another for you to ignore. Be sure not to look through all the links at the bottom.

And yet another with lots of links to ignore, especially the "Expert Opinions" link toward the bottom where there are a dozen links to studies each with links to more studies. You want overwhelming? You got it.

You really are an imbecilic silly little excuse for a jew, aren't you. Your rabbis must cringe with embarrassment every time you show up on Shabbat.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Eliyahu, posted 03-05-2014 4:59 PM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Eliyahu, posted 03-05-2014 11:24 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 37 by Eliyahu, posted 03-06-2014 11:24 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(7)
Message 9 of 139 (721268)
03-05-2014 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eliyahu
03-05-2014 12:52 PM


Some people doubt the fact that the Torah is of divine origin.

Fortunately, for those we have the divine signature in the Torah, something that is totally unique to the Torah, namely the codes woven into the Torah.

But even if we suppose that all these things like you've described were the result of an intelligent stunt to hide or bury words in subtle ways included into Biblical texts, I still wonder why you would think this was utterly divine. By what sign could we all conclude that this literature was designed by the Omnipotent instead of a determined man? But perhaps you doubt that a clever chap could ever manage such a thing. This paragraph indicates that yes he could.

Butevenifwes
upposethatal
lthesethings
likeyou'vede
scribedweret
heresultofan
intelligents
tunttohideor
burywordsins
ubtlewaysinc
ludedintoBib
licaltexts,I
stillwonderw
hyyouwouldth
inkthiswasut
terlydivine.
Bywhatsignco
uldweallconc
ludethatthis
literaturewa
sdesignedbyt
heOmnipotent
insteadofade
terminedman?
Butperhapsyo
udoubtthatac
leverchapcou
ldevermanage
suchathing.T
hisparagraph
indicatestha
tyeshecould.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eliyahu, posted 03-05-2014 12:52 PM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by sfs, posted 03-05-2014 11:06 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded
 Message 11 by Eliyahu, posted 03-05-2014 11:19 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
sfs
Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


Message 10 of 139 (721269)
03-05-2014 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dr Adequate
03-05-2014 10:46 PM


Or this famous, decidedly non-divine, episode.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-05-2014 10:46 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 418 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 11 of 139 (721270)
03-05-2014 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dr Adequate
03-05-2014 10:46 PM


Butevenifwes
upposethatal
lthesethings
likeyou'vede
scribedweret
heresultofan
intelligents
tunttohideor
burywordsins
ubtlewaysinc
ludedintoBib
licaltexts,I
stillwonderw
hyyouwouldth
inkthiswasut
terlydivine.
Bywhatsignco
uldweallconc
ludethatthis
literaturewa
sdesignedbyt
heOmnipotent
insteadofade
terminedman?
Butperhapsyo
udoubtthatac
leverchapcou
ldevermanage
suchathing.T
hisparagraph
indicatestha
tyeshecould.

Bs'd

Yes, I mean something like that, but then woven into an existing text that actually makes sense.

So show me.



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-05-2014 10:46 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-05-2014 11:37 PM Eliyahu has responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 418 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 12 of 139 (721271)
03-05-2014 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by AZPaul3
03-05-2014 6:13 PM


Re: This is not real
You didn't even bother with the source I provided, did you.

Here's another for you to ignore. Be sure not to look through all the links at the bottom.

Bs'd

I'm not asking for links, I'm asking examples of codes, worked into an existing text. Since the claim is that are found in "War and Peace", and in "Moby Dick", they cannot be so hard to find.

You really are an imbecilic silly little excuse for a jew, aren't you. Your rabbis must cringe with embarrassment every time you show up on Shabbat.

Nobody is perfect.



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2014 6:13 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by AZPaul3, posted 03-06-2014 7:01 AM Eliyahu has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 13 of 139 (721273)
03-05-2014 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Eliyahu
03-05-2014 11:19 PM


Yes, I mean something like that, but then woven into an existing text that actually makes sense.

That text does exist and actually makes sense. How about you answer it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Eliyahu, posted 03-05-2014 11:19 PM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Eliyahu, posted 03-06-2014 10:44 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7271
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 14 of 139 (721274)
03-05-2014 11:42 PM


Sharpshooter Fallacy
The Bible Codes boil down to a fancy Sharpshooter Fallacy where you paint the bull's eye around the bullet hole. No one predicted beforehand that specific phrases would be found in the Torah. Instead, they manipulate the Torah until they get something, and then claim after the fact that the Torah meant to say that all along.

What would have been much more impressive is if the codes were predicted before any manipulation was done, but that isn't the case.


  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 418 days)
Posts: 286
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 15 of 139 (721275)
03-06-2014 12:21 AM


Bs'd

The codes I showed you guys, four or five lettered words with a skip between 7 and 50, can. with a bit of patience, be integrated in a text. No divine intervention needed for that one. Still, they are good examples to show that the codes are there, because everybody can check it out for himself. Also, the myth about the Bible that the shepherds were laying around the campfire at night, being bored, and decided to put some old myths on paper, is with the existence of those codes shown to be wrong. There definitely is something going on with that text. That's for sure. That's why the Bible codes don't wanna die, because they are right there, alive and kicking.

So now time for some more serious stuff. For this I have to give some background information, for the sake of those who were raised without any knowledge of their Biblical heritage.
The Hebrew Bible, by Jews called Tanach, by Christians called Old Testament, contains a book called Esther. It's about an ugly theme, a theme that unfortunately crops up time and again throughout history, the story of a ruler who decides that today is a good day to start exterminating all the Jews.
The Jews were exiled by the Babylonians, and deported to Babel. There a high placed ruler asked and received from the king permission to murder all the Jews. But there was the queen Esther, a Jewess herself, who managed, with the help of the Almighty of course, to throw a spoke in the wheel of the evil Haman, who wanted to murder all the Jews. The end was all good for the Jews, Haman and his whole family were slaughtered, together with a lot of people who came to murder the Jews, and the fear of the Jews was upon the land. People who want to see that whole original story can look HERE I can recommend it, nice story, intrigue, violence, humor, and only ten chapters long.
Anyway, the Jews are known for preserving their holy books with an accuracy unmatched by anybody else on the whole earth. No books of more than 2000 years old have been preserved so intact as the Jewish holy books. The Torah, the most Holy part of the Hebrew Bible, is transmitted through the ages, over a time period of 3300 years with an astonishing degree of accuracy. There are very many rules that apply to the copying process of Torah scrolls: They may only be written on parchment of kosher animals, which must be sewn together with tendons of kosher animals. It may only be written by a Jew, dressed in a Jewish garment, in a state of ritual purity, which means that, amongst other things, he must wash himself in a ritual bath. Even his state of mind is subjected to certain rulings. The whole manuscript must be ruled before it is written upon, when three words are written without ruling, the whole manuscript is disqualified and must be buried. The ink may only be black, prepared according to an ancient recipe. The Torah scroll may only be copied from another authentic scroll, and absolutely no deviation is allowed. Absolutely no words may be written without first looking to the example. The length of each column must be between 48 and 60 rules, and the width must be 30 letters. Between the letters must be a space as wide as a hair, between the paragraphs a space of nine letters, between the books a space of three rules. Calculations have been made how many letters there are in the whole Torah, which letter is the middle, how many letters there are in every book of the Torah, how many times certain words and even letters appear in the text. And there are many, many more rules for copying Torah scrolls that are still in effect, up to this day. No other religion had such an extremely precise way of copying their holy texts. This shows the enormous respect that the Jewish people have for the sacred text, and this is the reason that the text is handed down through the millennia with an extreme grade of accuracy.
Thanks to this, we know that the book of Esther has only 12,111 letters. Not more, not less, but exactly 12,111 letters. Actually, the words book of Esther, is not correct. The Jews hold on to their ancient custom, and read on Purim, the day these events are being recalled an celebrated, from a scroll, and not from a book.

And now the code. It just happens to be so that the word esther pops up in the Torah (the Torah is the first five books of the Tanach; Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, that is the most holy part of the Jewish Bible) only once, and that is in Genesis 4:14.
Now, if in that selfsame verse where that word esther appears, you take the first regular mem (not a mem at the end of a word, which has a different form) and from there you skip 12,111 letters, then you get a gimel, a G. Skip from there another 12,111 letters, and a lamed (L) will appear. Another 12,111 letters further a tav (T) will appear, and that makes together M-G-L-T, which is the Hebrew word megilat. Megilah means scroll, and megilat means scroll of.
The scroll with the book of Esther on it is called megilat Esther, which means the scroll of Esther, or Esther scroll. So the only place in the Torah where the word esther appears, there is coded with a skip of 12,111, the amount of letters in the book of Esther, the word scroll, which together makes Esther scroll.

Isn't that amazing?

Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.



"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

Replies to this message:
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