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Author Topic:   Perceptions of Reality v3
RAZD
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Posts: 18970
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 1 of 40 (726686)
05-10-2014 2:15 PM


Building on previous versions ... and attempting brevity () ...

To begin with, I don't think it is possible in the slightest for two people to have exactly the same set of beliefs and knowledge, we are all a little different from anyone else and sometimes a lot different from some others. We are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand -- our personal worldview.

Let me open up the discussion a bit by first considering the whole playing field of human knowledge and perceptions of reality, first in very general terms:

science (click) is what we know about reality from objective evidence and the scientific method.


  1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
  2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
  3. any of the branches of natural or physical science.
  4. systematized knowledge in general.
  5. knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.


philosophy (click) is what we think about reality based on logic that is internally consistent

  1. the rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct.
  2. any of the three branches, namely natural philosophy, moral philosophy, and metaphysical philosophy, that are accepted as composing this study.
  3. a particular system of thought based on such study or investigation: the philosophy of Spinoza.
  4. the critical study of the basic principles and concepts of a particular branch of knowledge, especially with a view to improving or reconstituting them: the philosophy of science.
  5. a system of principles for guidance in practical affairs.


faith (click) is what we believe about reality without objectivity or logic.

  1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
  2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
  3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
  4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
  5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.


These concepts can be wrong, however it is much harder to determine if a concept is correct than to determine if it is wrong, so this leaves us with concepts we think are correct versus concepts we know to be wrong.

Science tests concepts against the objective evidence to eliminate ideas that don't match reality as it is known by objective evidence, but it can't prove that the concepts are correct representations of reality.

Philosophy can be based on our knowledge of reality and it can consider hypothetical concepts that cannot be tested by scientific methods, they can only be tested for self consistency. Philosophical concepts that are contradictory to our knowledge of reality, however, are just as invalidated as scientific concepts so invalidated.

Faith involves concepts that include, but are not limited to, concepts of god/s, and there is no known test of beliefs, other than that any belief concepts that are contradictory to our knowledge of reality are just as invalidated as scientific concepts so invalidated.

If I were to draw a picture of this it would be something like this:

If I were to place over this the worldview knowledge of science, philosophy and faith of a YEC (young earth creationist) it would look something like this:

It is silly to consider scientific concepts at odds with reality.

It is irrational to consider philosophical concepts at odds with reality.

It is delusional to maintain belief in concepts at odds with reality.

Enjoy

Edited by Admin, : Minor wordsmithing.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 05-11-2014 8:01 AM RAZD has responded
 Message 4 by AZPaul3, posted 05-11-2014 8:21 AM RAZD has responded
 Message 7 by ProtoTypical, posted 05-11-2014 8:44 AM RAZD has responded
 Message 28 by Stile, posted 05-12-2014 11:27 AM RAZD has responded

  
Admin
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Message 2 of 40 (726688)
05-11-2014 7:41 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Perceptions of Reality v3 thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Faith
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 40 (726691)
05-11-2014 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
05-10-2014 2:15 PM


faith (click) is what we believe about reality without objectivity or logic.

This is a false definition of CHRISTIAN faith, whatever other kind of faith you may have in mind. Christian faith is faith in the God of the Bible and in His revelation. He's the Creator of everything including science and reason. Whatever truly derives from Him is true, objective and logical.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 05-10-2014 2:15 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 05-11-2014 8:24 AM Faith has responded
 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 05-11-2014 9:01 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
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Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


(1)
Message 4 of 40 (726693)
05-11-2014 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
05-10-2014 2:15 PM


Is that right? Aren't science and faith both subsets of philosophy?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 05-10-2014 2:15 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 05-11-2014 9:08 AM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 16 by nwr, posted 05-11-2014 12:36 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 21 by Pressie, posted 05-12-2014 5:32 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 5 of 40 (726694)
05-11-2014 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
05-11-2014 8:01 AM


Articles of faith, M'lady. They serve as evidence of RAZD's point.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 05-11-2014 8:01 AM Faith has responded

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 Message 6 by Faith, posted 05-11-2014 8:35 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 40 (726697)
05-11-2014 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by AZPaul3
05-11-2014 8:24 AM


Not in the history of Christendom are they dismissed as articles of faith as you and he slightingly mean the term. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen." I think it was Athanasius who said "I know because I believe" or words to that effect, and when I first read that I knew exactly what he meant. In other words faith in the true God is a door to true knowledge, not the groundless thing unbelievers make of it. So you're wrong. Sorry.

ABE: Google seems to suggest it was Anselm, not Athanasius.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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ProtoTypical
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Posts: 1753
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 7 of 40 (726698)
05-11-2014 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
05-10-2014 2:15 PM


Reality can be swayed by faith
The thing about faith is that sometimes it can be validated by reality even though there was no objective or reasonable support for the faith beforehand. This is most obvious in the case of some truly unlikely military victories such as the English victory at Agincourt in 1415 when 6000 English troops defeated 30000 Frenchmen. Hannibal's victory against the Romans at Cannae in 216 bc or the Israeli victory in the 6 day war in 1967.

Sometimes reality develops in complete opposition to logic and reason.

Edited by ProtoTypical, : Cannae


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 05-10-2014 2:15 PM RAZD has responded

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 Message 11 by RAZD, posted 05-11-2014 9:20 AM ProtoTypical has responded

  
RAZD
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Posts: 18970
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 8 of 40 (726701)
05-11-2014 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
05-11-2014 8:01 AM


faith (click) is what we believe about reality without objectivity or logic.

This is a false definition of CHRISTIAN faith, whatever other kind of faith you may have in mind. Christian faith is faith in the God of the Bible and in His revelation. He's the Creator of everything including science and reason. Whatever truly derives from Him is true, objective and logical.

And yet you believe this is true without objective evidence or logic that it is true. This is not, of it's own, a bad thing.

It is when you believe things that are known to be false, like a young earth, where the evidence of the earth being over 4.5 billion years old is massive, that such beliefs become delusional.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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RAZD
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Posts: 18970
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 9 of 40 (726702)
05-11-2014 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by AZPaul3
05-11-2014 8:21 AM


Is that right? Aren't science and faith both subsets of philosophy?

Perhaps, certainly they are subsets of human thought.

Science is like a refinement of philosophy, a distillation that focuses on what we can know from objective evidence.

Faith is like an extrapolation of philosophy, an expansion of thoughts of what may be outside the natural realm of objective evidence.

So I could be wrong in thinking that philosophy is concerned with logic and internally consistent concepts and would need another word for that to use instead. Do you have one?


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by AZPaul3, posted 05-11-2014 8:21 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


(1)
Message 10 of 40 (726704)
05-11-2014 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
05-11-2014 8:35 AM


Of course, they are articles of faith. They are beliefs that sustain your faith. And to sustain that faith you believe these articles to be true regardless of the lack of evidence. You cannot hold a belief in a god for which there is no evidence outside your own head if you do not have the faith within your head that such exists. Nothing derogatory there. Simple definition.

I know because I believe.

An excellent definition of faith. To "know" based upon a belief sans evidence.

But this is going sideways to RAZD's thread and I do not want to derail it so soon. Maybe later.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18970
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 11 of 40 (726706)
05-11-2014 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by ProtoTypical
05-11-2014 8:44 AM


Re: Reality can be swayed by faith
Just a small quibble

... unlikely military victories such as the English victory at Agincourt in 1415 ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt

It was the introduction and massive use of the English longbow that gave them the victory. The longbow shot further and had enough power to pierce the French armor.

Certainly the faith the French had in winning the battle proved to be wrong.

I am reminded of the Dylan song "With God on Our Side"
http://www.metrolyrics.com/...our-side-lyrics-bob-dylan.html


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ProtoTypical, posted 05-11-2014 8:44 AM ProtoTypical has responded

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


(2)
Message 12 of 40 (726707)
05-11-2014 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
05-11-2014 9:08 AM


How many philosophers can fit on the head of a pin?
Do you have one?

That's the problem with philosophies. They do not have to be logical or internally consistent and even if some are does not insure they are correct, whatever that means.

What does one call a logical, internally consistent philosophy to differentiate it from those that are not? I don't know.

Over all, however, I think a good word for philosophy is "useless". But that doesn't help your exploration here. Sorry.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 05-11-2014 9:08 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 05-11-2014 9:55 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
ProtoTypical
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Posts: 1753
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 13 of 40 (726709)
05-11-2014 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by RAZD
05-11-2014 9:20 AM


Re: Reality can be swayed by faith
It was the introduction and massive use of the English longbow that gave them the victory

We both agree that there is always a reasonable explanation after the fact. I guess my point was that it is not always delusional to maintain beliefs in concepts that are at odds with reason.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by RAZD, posted 05-11-2014 9:20 AM RAZD has responded

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 Message 15 by RAZD, posted 05-11-2014 10:45 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18970
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 14 of 40 (726710)
05-11-2014 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by AZPaul3
05-11-2014 9:47 AM


Re: How many philosophers can fit on the head of a pin?
Good points again.

Perhaps what I should do is discard the labels and use just the definitions proposed

Inner core: is what we know about reality from objective evidence and the scientific method.

middle layer: is what we think about reality based on logic that is internally consistent

outer layer: is what we believe about reality without objectivity or logic.

And think about the layers in terms of the confidence we can have in their validity.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by AZPaul3, posted 05-11-2014 9:47 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18970
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 15 of 40 (726712)
05-11-2014 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ProtoTypical
05-11-2014 9:50 AM


Re: Reality can be swayed by faith
We both agree that there is always a reasonable explanation after the fact. I guess my point was that it is not always delusional to maintain beliefs in concepts that are at odds with reason.

At odds with logic, untested hypothesis, yes

At odds with theory, tested hypothesis, yes

At odds with facts, not so much.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ProtoTypical, posted 05-11-2014 9:50 AM ProtoTypical has acknowledged this reply

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