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Author Topic:   More on Diet and Carbohydrates
Percy
Member
Posts: 17965
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 1 of 237 (736083)
09-01-2014 9:46 PM


Some might remember the Good Calories, Bad Calories, by Gary Taubes and A Better Theory: In Defense of Food by Michael Pollan threads. There was a lot of controversy. Some seemed almost offended that anyone might question the "fat is bad, carbohydrates are good" hypothesis.

Today's New York Times has an article titled A Call for a Low-Carb Diet. It begins:

New York Times writes:

People who avoid carbohydrates and eat more fat, even saturated fat, lose more body fat and have fewer cardiovascular risks than people who follow the low-fat diet that health authorities have favored for decades, a major new study shows.

This is precisely the message that Gary Taubes has been spearheading for quite a long time. Looks like the evidence against carbohydrates that he said would be there if we looked is really there.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Coyote, posted 09-02-2014 12:35 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 09-02-2014 1:14 AM Percy has responded

    
Coyote
Member (Idle past 80 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 2 of 237 (736087)
09-02-2014 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-01-2014 9:46 PM


On fats (yum!)
I switched to a low carb diet a few weeks ago, but didn't pay any attention until I went looking for another notch on my belt to tighten things up--and there were no more notches.

Went to the scales and found I had lost maybe 12 lbs. painlessly by eating bacon, sausages, pork ribs, fatty steaks and omelets (as well as lots of salads with bacon bits and blue cheese), while avoiding sugar, donuts, pasta, bread and the like.

Hmmmmm. Sounds real good so far.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 09-01-2014 9:46 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

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Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 237 (736088)
09-02-2014 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-01-2014 9:46 PM


Atkins was right.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 09-01-2014 9:46 PM Percy has responded

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Percy
Member
Posts: 17965
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 4 of 237 (736093)
09-02-2014 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
09-02-2014 1:14 AM


Not only was Atkins right, but government dietary guidelines and organizations like the American Heart Association have been wrong for decades. The obesity epidemic, rising rates of type II diabetes and metabolic syndrome, millions of deaths due to heart disease, they can all be laid at the door of their endorsement of outdated research from over a half century ago that caused Americans to avoid fat and replace those calories with carbohydrates.

I just checked the American Heart Association website (Statements Published in Current Year). No comment yet.

The good news is that despite the inertia of government and health organizations, the past few years have seen an increasing emphasis on low carbohydrate foods on grocery store shelves. Research results like this should only improve the situation further.

--Percy


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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2804
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 5 of 237 (736149)
09-04-2014 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Coyote
09-02-2014 12:35 AM


Re: On fats (yum!)
Coyote writes:

while avoiding sugar, donuts, pasta, bread and the like.

I would be as thin as a rail if not for beer and French bread.
My Nemesis.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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Percy
Member
Posts: 17965
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 6 of 237 (736153)
09-04-2014 11:26 AM


Low Fat and Milk
Part of the legacy of the low fat movement is low fat and skim milk. After WWII based on the aforementioned research the US Department of Agriculture recommended that adults and children above 2 in age should consume fat-free or low-fat milk. But research reported last year shows these recommendations were ill advised for children, see Whole milk may be better for kids than skim milk. In the article Dr. Mark Daniel DeBoer is quoted saying:

"We were really surprised when we looked at the data and it was very clear that within every ethnicity and every socioeconomic strata, that it was actually the opposite, that children who drank skim milk and 1 percent were heavier than those who drank 2 percent and whole."

No doubt the same is true for adults.

Once our kids reached age two whole milk disappeared from our refrigerator and was replaced with 1%. I used to love breakfast cereal but didn't like it with the 1% milk, so I stopped eating breakfast cereal. Turns out I didn't need to miss one of my favorite foods.

I'm hoping to see the amount of shelf space dedicated to reduced fat milk gradually diminish in grocery stores.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Grammar.


Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 7 of 237 (736184)
09-04-2014 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Percy
09-04-2014 11:26 AM


Re: Low Fat and Milk
Before you place that order to the butcher shop, I'd recommend getting the study and looking over it yourself. Reporting of medical studies in the lay press is notoriously bad, with diet studies being the worst.

I don't know if this study is good or bad. I also don't know whether coffee, tea, or red wine, or e-cigarettes are good or bad for you either.

That children who drank skim milk and 1 percent were heavier than those who drank 2 percent and whole.

This is exactly the kind of reported result that needs to be taken with a grain of salt until you've actually looked at the study. Would it surprise you the least if it turned out that when parents see their kids blowin' up like manatees that they start buying them skim milk?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
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petrophysics1
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 8 of 237 (736188)
09-04-2014 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Coyote
09-02-2014 12:35 AM


Re: On fats (yum!)
Coyote,

Some years ago I was reading about the Louis and Clark Expedition and was amazed to find out that they ate about 9 pounds of meat per person per day.

This got tough to maintain in the mountains, and although they killed more animals than I have in a lifetime in a single day, the men talked Louis and Clark into allowing them to kill one of the horses because there wasn't enough food.

So much for the balanced diet.....and I'm sure none of these guys were fat........and I'm also sure they could easily kick the shit out of you or me.

About 15 years ago I went on a diet of only eating things that were available in Eastern Europe in 1000AD. I should be adapted to all those things. Then added things from the New World or other areas and watched my bodies response to these things. I found this interesting in that there are some things I shouldn't eat even though they don't cause an allergic response, but they do affect my physical well being..

One is tomatoes the other is oranges


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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 942 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(5)
Message 9 of 237 (736191)
09-04-2014 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by petrophysics1
09-04-2014 7:55 PM


Re: On fats (yum!)
My maternal grandmother was born in 1892; she died in 2000, just shy of her 108th birthday--my mother had passed a month before, at 79, after bypass surgery at 59 and after 20 years of low-fat diets and anti-cholesterol drugs: "My baby girl is dead, and I don't want to live any more" she cried at my mom's service. She passed in her sleep a month later.

Grandma ate bacon and eggs every morning--but with just one piece of thickly buttered white bread, because "That white food will make you fat." She drank strong black coffee pretty much 24/7. Other than breakfast, she ate mostly small, frequent servings of meat--red meat, didn't care for chicken or fish--along with greens served with butter and salt. She saved her bacon fat to add to the greens as they boiled.

My last employer before retirement was a private cardiology practice. Under pressure there, I tried a low fat diet and quickly gained 20 lbs. Screw this, I thought, and switched back to eating what I wanted--mostly salads, green veggies and, most of all, meat. I quickly lost the added weight. I confess I enjoyed their consternation as I plowed into steaks and chili and cheese in the break room and stayed trim, while they struggled with weight even with their low fat diets in hand

About 8 years later, I needed cardiac clearance prior to spine surgery. My employers ran me through the full gamut--stress test, echocardiogram, nuclear stress test, etc. They gave me many sad and solemn looks during testing, as if to say, we all know this can't be good.

When the testing was complete, I joined the physician studying the various images in the "reading room".

He looked at me, he looked at the screen, he looked at me and said, "You don't deserve this heart." I though, bullshit, you need better data.

I still eat as I did then. My blood pressure hovers around 110/60; my resting pulse around 60, even though my physical activity is now severely limited. My cholesterol levels are, as they have always been--and as my grandma's were--fairly high.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not recommending anything to anyone: I don't want the responsibility.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 237 (736235)
09-05-2014 5:36 PM


Here is a link to a number of studies comparing low carb to low fat diets.

http://authoritynutrition.com/...-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets

According to the site, there is definitely a trend towards studies showing that low carb diets are more effective than low fat diets. But the trend is not universal and there are fairly recent studies rebutting the idea that Atkins was right.

If I were going to pick and choose, I'd look at well designed studies where the people were kinda like me. I'd ignore the studies that were observational rather than controlled experiments.

And here is another, rather sobering result:

http://www.wellspringcamps.com/...essons-in-weight-loss.html

quote:
More important, the overall outcomes were not particularly impressive: an average of 9 lbs. weight loss (out of an average of 50 lbs of excess weight at the start) after dieting for two years.

In the accompanying editorial, Dr. Martijn Katahn stated: "It is obvious by now that weight losses among participants in diet trials will at best average 3-4 kg after 2-4 years."


Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Percy, posted 09-05-2014 7:40 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17965
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 11 of 237 (736237)
09-05-2014 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by NoNukes
09-05-2014 5:36 PM


NoNukes writes:

And here is another, rather sobering result:

http://www.wellspringcamps.com/...essons-in-weight-loss.html

quote:
More important, the overall outcomes were not particularly impressive: an average of 9 lbs. weight loss (out of an average of 50 lbs of excess weight at the start) after dieting for two years.

In the accompanying editorial, Dr. Martijn Katahn stated: "It is obvious by now that weight losses among participants in diet trials will at best average 3-4 kg after 2-4 years."


It's been known for a very long while that the long term outcome of the vast majority of dieting is failure. The usual pattern is short-term success over the first few months or maybe even a year, followed by regaining the weight over the next year or two.

The key issue isn't which weight-loss diet is better, but what should a healthy diet look like. This was discussed a great deal in the two threads referenced in Message 1. Existing studies strongly hinted at health benefits for low carb over low fat but were not definitive, so the study cited in Message 1 was a helpful step toward clarifying the advantages in terms of measures like muscle/fat proportions, triglyceride levels, HDL/LDL ratios, and weight loss.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 12 of 237 (736246)
09-05-2014 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Percy
09-05-2014 7:40 PM


The key issue isn't which weight-loss diet is better, but what should a healthy diet look like.

I agree. My last comments were addressed to the "Atkins was right" posts and not the OP.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Percy, posted 09-05-2014 7:40 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 09-05-2014 10:16 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 13 of 237 (736250)
09-05-2014 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by NoNukes
09-05-2014 9:56 PM


Atkins was right about the health benefits of low carb eating, not just losing weight. His books include a lot of research on the health benefits, especially the good fat/bad fat ratios.

If you follow his diet you will lose weight rather dramatically. Carbs are restricted down to the level of a green salad per day for the first two weeks and then they are gradually added back in with careful attention to their effect on weight.

I found I couldn't keep it up myself. I get "carb cravings." Potato chips in my case. I also find it easier to eat a sandwich these days than to make a meal for myself, which of course includes the "bad" bread carbs. So although I continue to avoid sugar and desserts and most fruits and potatoes and rice and flour, I've regained all the weight I lost. I think I'd be happy with steak and asparagus and bacon and eggs for the rest of my life, or Coyote's diet or Omni's grandmother's, but it's too hard to keep the bad carbs out completely.

As far as weight goes, and perhaps the health issues as well, the worst thing you can do is eat Atkins style, not avoiding fats, WITH the bad carbs, even a couple of slices of bread per day.

But my cardio tests have been fine anyway.

ABE: Just a comment on the Lewis and Clark diet of nine pounds of meat per day. I've seen a couple of documentaries on that 4expedition and those guys worked harder than any of today's super athletes, pushing, pulling, poling, oaring a heavy boat up river for weeks, then carrying it over land, then climbing the Rockies. Such an exclusive diet of meat, knowing now that you can lose weight on just meat, doesn't seem like the right choice. Not that they had much choice I suppose, but today's super athletes eat something like 6000 calories a day in training and a lot of it is carbs, which I'd think would be better fuel for heavy work than meat. The reason we get fat on them, besides eating too much of the bad kind, is that we aren't that active these days.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Coyote
Member (Idle past 80 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 14 of 237 (736253)
09-05-2014 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
09-05-2014 10:16 PM


Low carbs vs. hi fats
Faith--it is rare that I agree with you, but in this case--I do.

But to take things a step further, it is not so much a low-carb diet that seems to work best, but a hi-fat diet.

For me, a couple of nice Italian sausages and maybe three strips of fatty bacon in the morning carries me all day, and for dinner (with some red wine) either a salad with blue cheese or even just a bit of salami and cheese works well. I don't get as hungry as I used to, and there are no snacks in between.

From what I read, it is the fat that satisfies the appetite.

In any case, it is working so far. I'm going to have to buy a new belt (smaller) and will be able to start wearing jeans that I had long since outgrown.

All this while eating the foods I really like!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 09-05-2014 10:16 PM Faith has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 237 (736268)
09-06-2014 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
09-05-2014 10:16 PM


I've regained all the weight I lost.

With respect to weight loss, is that such is the result of all diets.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 09-05-2014 10:16 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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