Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 120 (8783 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-23-2017 11:36 AM
358 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: evilsorcerer1
Post Volume:
Total: 816,817 Year: 21,423/21,208 Month: 1,856/2,326 Week: 311/881 Day: 29/107 Hour: 5/12

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
2345678Next
Author Topic:   What to say if you met God/god/Gods/gods
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4984
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 1 of 116 (749620)
02-06-2015 9:24 AM


I don't know whether Stephen Fry is known to Americans but he's become a bit of a national treasure in the UK. He's a very smart guy, a comedian, writer, technophile, homosexual and atheist.

He was recently interviewed on Irish TV, asked what he's say to god if/when he met him and consequently caused quite a storm. The interviewer was obviously pretty shocked.

YouTube URL Providedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1422579428&feature=p...

Someone - I thought it was Russell but my 5 minute Google didn't reveal anything - said some like

"You should have given me more evidence."

Which is also pretty cool.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 02-06-2015 8:39 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 12 by Pressie, posted 02-08-2015 5:58 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 13 by frako, posted 02-08-2015 7:12 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 16 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-08-2015 3:35 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 63 by dwise1, posted 07-24-2015 3:08 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 97 by mike the wiz, posted 03-01-2017 5:23 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 115 by Davidjay, posted 06-05-2017 11:10 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1803
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 116 (749622)
02-06-2015 12:20 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the What to say if you met God/god/Gods/gods thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9596
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 3 of 116 (749655)
02-06-2015 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
02-06-2015 9:24 AM


Questions For Hizzoner
Would you say something similar to how Stephen Fry responded?

Personally, I don't think it would be quite so easy to meet GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen. Jesus would be a bit more plausible---approachable and spokes-person-like.

I wouldn't be quite as arrogant as Stephen Fry was. Truthfully, I don't know what I would say or ask any differently than I do now through prayer.

I'd have to think about this one.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God — only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 02-06-2015 9:24 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by vimesey, posted 02-07-2015 1:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 02-07-2015 3:08 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 888
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 4 of 116 (749663)
02-07-2015 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
02-06-2015 8:39 PM


Re: Questions For Hizzoner
I can understand why, as a Christian, you'd see what Stephen Fry said as arrogant, but this is the heart of his point. This whole "we're not worthy, we worship you and abase ourselves, we are but worms" stuff is utterly unsustainable in the face of the sorts of injustices Stephen Fry mentions, unless our sole purpose is to get our own ass into club God and hence into heaven.

Stephen Fry seems (severe bouts of depression to one side) to have had a relatively good life - his words here (and elsewhere) are spoken on behalf of people suffering the world's injustices. He is a deeply moral and apparently pretty selfless person, and his questions to God would be put in that context.

I don't see that as arrogant. I see it as noble.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 02-06-2015 8:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4984
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 5 of 116 (749664)
02-07-2015 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
02-06-2015 8:39 PM


Re: Questions For Hizzoner
Phat writes:

Would you say something similar to how Stephen Fry responded?

Most of what Stephen said has been said by others - the worm in the child's eye is David Attenburgh for example - but not all at once and not as cleverly or as powerully - I couldn't hope to match that.

Of course the problem with this little conceit is that if god does exist he's obviously a total shit and he's not going to offer the opportunity of a pleasant little chat.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 02-06-2015 8:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 02-07-2015 3:44 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25909
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 6 of 116 (749665)
02-07-2015 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Tangle
02-07-2015 3:08 AM


Re: Questions For Hizzoner
I must be a glutton for punishment if I'm actually considering responding to this post. Oh well, here goes.

It is of course disturbing to a Christian to hear someone denounce the God who made him and everything else, and there is never going to be a way to answer him adequately, he thinks what he thinks, and many here agree with him, even as vimesey said, consider it noble of him to stand up against God for people who suffer unjustly in this world.

But of course the answer is easy from my point of view, easy but not simple: Everything God made was good, He said so. The original Creation had no disease or death, pain or suffering. Suffering entered the world when sin entered at the Fall. Just saying that will raise the specter of Calvin and God will be accused of all of it anyway since the Fall was also in His sovereign will.

But that doesn’t change the fact that all goodness is in God and it’s human sin that has brought pain and suffering into the world.

That being the case the opinions of this man are adding to the calamity he decries. He himself could be responsible for the worm in someone's eye, if only by influencing more people to hate God. Hating God is itself sin since the first commandment is You shall love God with all your heart...

Every day our own sins contribute to our own sufferings, if not now then later. And we inherit sin too through our ancestors. That's a Biblical principle. Nations accumulate sin by passing laws that violate God's laws. Abortion is murder. America has murdered some fifty million unborn since Roe v Wade. That's going to bring judgment on America. Sexual sin is also big in America. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" covers every kind of sexual sin, and if it's officialized in law it's definitely going to bring God's judgment against the whole nation. Fornication is a sin and it's tolerated in America, and people even applaud the birth of fatherless babies these days. Easy divorce is a sin as "God hates divorce." Applying the First Amendment to the protection of pornography and homosexuality is a bad one. God is not going to overlook these things for long.

That's just a few I think of at the national level. You can read the Ten Commandments and the elaborations of the Law in the Bible, and the penalties prescribed to Israel for violating them in Deuteronomy 9 and Leviticus 26 if you want to get an idea of where America is on the judgement calendar.

Personal suffering as a result of sin is usually not possible for us to track down. We all inherit sin through our ancestors and bring more suffering on ourselves through our own sins. Babies simply inherit it, and nobody really knows much about the sins of our ancestors so there's no way to guess why anybody suffers in a particular way at a particular time, the thing is the world is shot through with sin and we're all vulnerable to disease and calamity.

As long as we think it's righteous to promote abortion and homosexuality and all the sexual sins and so on and so forth we are all contributing to the accumulation of suffering in the world.

The way God's law works is almost like a sort of cause-and-effect machine whose operations are inexorable but too complex to trace. What happens of course is that people will go on thinking sin is just fine and God is a meanie and things will keep getting worse.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 02-07-2015 3:08 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 02-07-2015 11:50 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 9 by Tangle, posted 02-07-2015 12:05 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 10 by Coyote, posted 02-07-2015 12:26 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29190
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 7 of 116 (749670)
02-07-2015 9:00 AM


Questions
How the hell did you put up with someone like Paul or Calvin or Luther?

Where do the Dalai Lamas hang out?

Have you seen Ganesha lately?

When's the BBQ and Low Country Boil?

Where can I get a good pint of bitter?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 07-20-2015 11:46 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13473
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 8 of 116 (749679)
02-07-2015 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
02-07-2015 3:44 AM


Re: Questions For Hizzoner
Faith writes:

Everything God made was good, He said so.


I can't help but think of Charles Manson being denounced by his children:
"But everything I did was good. You guys screwed it up."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 02-07-2015 3:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4984
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 9 of 116 (749681)
02-07-2015 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
02-07-2015 3:44 AM


Re: Questions For Hizzoner
Faith writes:

We all inherit sin through our ancestors and bring more suffering on ourselves through our own sins. Babies simply inherit it

It's exactly this kind of evil, insane and just plain laughable idea that proves that if there is a god, he's sure as hell (sic) got nothing to do with Christianity.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 02-07-2015 3:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5944
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 10 of 116 (749685)
02-07-2015 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
02-07-2015 3:44 AM


Re: Questions For Hizzoner
We all inherit sin through our ancestors...

I consider the idea of original sin to be among the most evil schemes ever foisted upon mankind by the shaman class.

The best summary of this I have seen is by Ayn Rand:

What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call his Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge—he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil—he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor—he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire—he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy—all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was—that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love—he was not man.

Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives.

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/original_sin.html


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 02-07-2015 3:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25909
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 11 of 116 (749697)
02-07-2015 5:22 PM


Predictable responses. Funny how for people who think evidence and reality matter so much to them, when it comes to this it's their irrational feelings that call the shots. If what I've said is true so that there are practical causes for suffering and also practical solutions, you'd think a pragmatic rational position would be concerned with that side of things.

I forgot to add that the continued inexorable increase in sin and suffering can be turned around by repentance and prayer.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 02-08-2015 1:31 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 17 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-08-2015 3:41 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1716
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 12 of 116 (749737)
02-08-2015 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
02-06-2015 9:24 AM


My answer would be:

"You know Holy FSM (oh, you’re omniscient so I don’t really have to tell you as you know my thoughts), but here goes. Pasta and meat balls would get quite boring after a while, especially if I’m going to have it for brunch every day.

Imagine having it every day for all eternity. Not that you can imagine eating, for You don’t need to eat. But try to.

Sometimes beacon and eggs would do just fine for me."

Of course I would have to alter the answer quite considerably in the case of encountering the Jewish and/or Muslim God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 02-06-2015 9:24 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
frako
Member
Posts: 2702
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 13 of 116 (749738)
02-08-2015 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
02-06-2015 9:24 AM


I would ask him what the deal with general relativity and quantum mechanics not being compatible is.

And if he could look up next weeks Euro Jacpot numbers i could really use thaose 40 million EUR.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 02-06-2015 9:24 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Pressie, posted 02-08-2015 9:24 AM frako has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1716
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 14 of 116 (749745)
02-08-2015 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by frako
02-08-2015 7:12 AM


Hey, I'd ask him for Wednesday night's SA lotto numbers, too. On R20 000 000, I would be able to buy my own Indian Ocean Island.

You should have seen the answers from our main local "born again Christian" on that one when he was asked about it on tv. Suddenly he wasn't being able to talk to Spooks anymore. Just some vague "personal relationship"...

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by frako, posted 02-08-2015 7:12 AM frako has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13473
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 15 of 116 (749771)
02-08-2015 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
02-07-2015 5:22 PM


Faith writes:

Funny how for people who think evidence and reality matter so much to them, when it comes to this it's their irrational feelings that call the shots.


Funny how you think "irrational feelings" have anything to do with evidence and reality. The concept of gods is irrational to begin with, whether they exist or not.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 02-07-2015 5:22 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 01-22-2017 1:17 AM ringo has responded

  
1
2345678Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017