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Author Topic:   Origin of the Flood Layers
Faith
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 409 (752507)
03-08-2015 9:31 PM


Retitled this thread because it's been taken over by Flood debunkers who mischaracterize my arguments and put up the usual straw man nonsense. No point in me participating.

=========================Original Post:
ThinAir is rightly objecting to all the off-topic stuff on his thread, Earth Science Curriculum so although I really have no interest in pursuing any of it myself, since people keep posting to me I figure we need another place to let it play out.

Off Topic post on metamorphic rock in the Appalachians:

The last post directed to me was this from edge:

Faith writes:

Properly speaking that's not a diagram, it's a chart and I have no idea what it purports to show with all its categories of rock types. An actual diagram of the mountain structures involved would possibly be more edifying ...

edge writes:

Since the higher-grade metamorphic rocks are present at the surface, it is reasonable to assume that they were actually once at a much greater depth.

I can't tell any of this from the chart. At what surface where?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Admin, : Change title, was "The Bully Swarm Thread, off the Earth Science Curriculum thread"


Replies to this message:
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Faith
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Posts: 26454
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 409 (752508)
03-08-2015 9:38 PM


Edge, please continue discussion here
ThinAir wants our side discussion off his thread.

This is your last post. Please bring it over here.

http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&m=752137#m752137


    
edge
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From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
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Message 3 of 409 (752509)
03-08-2015 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
03-08-2015 9:31 PM


I can't tell any of this from the chart. At what surface where?

At the ground surface, in the Appalachians. These rocks were subject to conditions at depths greater than 2km and up to 20km.
This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
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Posts: 9998
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 4 of 409 (752510)
03-08-2015 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
03-08-2015 9:31 PM


I am not clear what the side issue here is exactly.

Discussion of geology is clearly on topic in the other thread. About the only thing that's off topic in the other thread would seem to be complaints that geologists are not practicing real science because their results contradict the Bible. Or accusations that only YEC believers are real Biblical Christians.

Perhaps this thread should have gone through the vetting process. In my opinion, the topic belongs in some forum. Perhaps one of the Faith based forums?


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
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Posts: 26454
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 409 (752511)
03-09-2015 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by NoNukes
03-08-2015 10:22 PM


The whole discussion with me was off topic. I can't separate my own views from the discussion itself others kept pursuing with me, most but not all of it about geological questions. I think of the side track as a hodgepodge of issues that kept going at that thread against ThinAir's wishes. Maybe it could be moved to some other forum for miscellaneous or eclectic conversations.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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Faith
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Posts: 26454
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 409 (752512)
03-09-2015 10:47 AM


More Floody stuff from the other thread
So the discussion is continuing over at the other thread with ThinAir offering his opinion about the Flood now, but I'm not allowed to post there apparently. Only his opinion is acceptable. Or antiFloodists' opinion anyway.

RAZD has continued there too despite my note to come over here.
http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&m=752155#m752155

Oh well. Here's a hodgepodge of my own answers to those posts:

OK, RAZD, thanks for the clarification. That makes sense. I could have come up with it myself actually, since apparently silt, being a very finegrained sediment, would behave rather as powdery kitchen substances do, such as flour or cocoa powder. Getting them to mix into a liquid is not easy because they do like to float on the surface, due to surface tension as you say, for quite a long time, and even "turbulence" won't do much to mix them. You have to work them slowly into a small amount of liquid before adding more liquid and even then a lot of it can remain dry in the center of muddy lumps.

So since the KT boundary asteroid ribbon occurs high in the geologic column I'd suppose that the rain had long since stopped and the full depth of the flood had been reached some time ago as well, so I'd postulate that the KT boundary powder had plenty of opportunity to float for a very long time on relatively placid water before the water receded enough for it to be deposited on the surface of whatever the last sediment to be deposited was.

We'll never know for sure, anything about how the Flood worked, but it's really not terribly hard to come up with explanations that are logical and reasonable and nothing like the ridiculous stuff antiFloodists come up with.

Like ThinAir who can only imagine deposition by "settling out" of the water. That's one way some of it could have been deposited, but by the look of the enormous expanse of some of the layers across whole continents I suspect much of it was deposited the way sand is deposited on beaches as the water receded but very long waves continued to wash up over the land for a long time. It's occurred to me to consider that there could be observable differences between phases of the layering based on whether they were deposited during the rising of the water or the standing water period or the receding period.

Since there is and never will be any way to know for sure how it played out we certainly don't have to accept the kneejerk debunkery sort of thinking of the antiFloodists. There are plenty of plausible options.

ABE: Didn't answer RAZD's remark about there being layers above and below the iridium. Golly Gee, you suppose I hadn't noticed? This is typical kneejerk superficial debunkery. Just THINK a bit. ALL the sediments have sediments above and below them. This can happen by settling out or by successive deposition by waves. Just think it through with an eye to how it COULD HAVE WORKED.

The old time creationist geologists gave up on the Flood too soon because they didn't take the time to think it through. Any old kneejerk answer to a straw man scenario would throw them off the track.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 21 by Coyote, posted 03-09-2015 1:05 PM Faith has responded
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jar
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Posts: 29472
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 7 of 409 (752513)
03-09-2015 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
03-09-2015 10:47 AM


Re: More Floody stuff from the other thread
There are things that we can know for sure though Faith, and that is the purpose of the other thread.

We can know for sure that neither of the Biblical Floods ever happened and the goal of the other thread is to help develop a curriculum to educate those people who have been told that the floods might have happened.

We can know for sure that Earth is not 6000 years old but at least 4 billion years old. and the goal of the other thread is to help develop a curriculum to educate those people who have been told that the earth is young.

In fact, your post is a great example to show such folk to help them understand why all evidence shows the floods never happened and that the Earth is billions of years old.

You said ...

Faith writes:

So since the KT boundary asteroid ribbon occurs high in the geologic column I'd suppose that the rain had long since stopped and the full depth of the flood had been reached some time ago as well, so I'd postulate that the KT boundary powder had plenty of opportunity to float for a very long time on relatively placid water before the water receded enough for it to be deposited on the surface of whatever the last sediment to be deposited was.

... but when folk look at the evidence they find that the iridium layer is often covered by lots of other far heavier, far denser materials. It's not an example of the last sediment laid down.

When combined with the additional evidence of salt beds, the Green River varves, the White Cliffs of Dover and so many many other examples easily seen the Earth simply cannot be only 6000 years old and the Biblical Floods would be useless as an explanation of what actually does exist.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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NoNukes
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Posts: 9998
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 8 of 409 (752514)
03-09-2015 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
03-09-2015 10:29 AM


Maybe it could be moved to some other forum for miscellaneous or eclectic conversations.

Perhaps my attempt at tact is hindering communication. In my opinion, this thread could be in the same forum with the original thread or it could be in the geology forum. Putting it in Coffee house simply circumvents the thread approval process. Coffee house is for non EvC discussion.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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 Message 5 by Faith, posted 03-09-2015 10:29 AM Faith has responded

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Faith
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Posts: 26454
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 409 (752515)
03-09-2015 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by NoNukes
03-09-2015 11:45 AM


Then an admin can move it wherever it seems to fit best. I simply wanted a catchall thread for discussions that supposedly didn't belong on the other thread.
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Faith
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Posts: 26454
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 10 of 409 (752516)
03-09-2015 12:20 PM


water sorting by particle size
This IS a site for DEBATE between creationists and evolutionists, right? Apparently ThinAir won't discuss anything with a creationist.

Now they are discussing how water sorts according to size. Yes, and so what? We'd expect to see this in the Flood wherever Walther's Law applies, and perhaps also in strata laid down by waves as beach sand is, the heavier larger particles depositing on the bottom of the layer. This would take examining a lot of layers everywhere. Just off the top of my head I'm aware of some layers of coarser material that occur higher in the column than other layers, in the Grand Canyon as well as the Grand Staircase, but this needs checking.


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Tanypteryx
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From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 11 of 409 (752517)
03-09-2015 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
03-09-2015 10:47 AM


Re: More Floody stuff from the other thread
So since the KT boundary asteroid ribbon occurs high in the geologic column I'd suppose that the rain had long since stopped and the full depth of the flood had been reached some time ago as well, so I'd postulate that the KT boundary powder had plenty of opportunity to float for a very long time on relatively placid water before the water receded enough for it to be deposited on the surface of whatever the last sediment to be deposited was.

In your fantasy, the whole world is covered by a flood and than a huge asteroid hits and you think the water would be placid? The waves that would race all the way around the planet would have smashed and sunk Noah's boat.

None of your silly ideas have any resemblance to reality. The materials of the earth, silt, sand, gravel, rocks, boulders, do not behave in water the way you imagine they do. Anyone can test these things for themselves and then when we look at the sedimentary layers themselves they clearly were not deposited by one giant flood. All the deposits you cannot explain demonstrate that you are wrong.

You have been told all this stuff over and over for years, but you insist that the bible is the complete story and the evidence we can go out and actually study is not there.

There is no asteroid in the bible. There is no flood "geology" in the bible. You have made all that up. There is just rain hard enough to flood the whole world in 40 days and then they float around for a while and then the water goes away and all the bad people and animals are dead. It is a fable

There is far more evidence that Santa Claus is real than the flood or god or Jesus or that any of Genisis is true. It is time to grow up Faith. You have no evidence. All the evidence, all of it, every single bit of it, shows that the earth is billions of years old, that life is billions of years old, and that Evolution explains the diversity of life that we see today.

So the discussion is continuing over at the other thread with ThinAir offering his opinion about the Flood now, but I'm not allowed to post there apparently. Only his opinion is acceptable. Or antiFloodists' opinion anyway.

ThinAirDesigns is getting evidence that he asked for, actual evidence from scientists who have done the research. RAZD, Dr. A, Edge and others are providing him with that evidence.

Then you come along and start arguing with everyone with your completely unsubstantiated fantasies. He has already heard all that and rejected it. He told you he wants facts not fantasy and to please stop cluttering up the thread.

No one believes you Faith. The evidence is all against you and you will never convince anyone that you are right. It is all about evidence and you do not have any.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26454
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 409 (752518)
03-09-2015 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tanypteryx
03-09-2015 12:20 PM


Re: More Floody stuff from the other thread
Thank you SO much for your thoughtful and considerate reply in which you so carefully consider the arguments I've made.

ABE: I know for a fact that you just about never read anything I write, let alone think about it, by how long it takes you to hit the Cheer button for anybody who disagrees with me. You are a sad case. And if you are telling me to get off ThinAir's thread, I respectfully request that you take your dragonfly back to Starbucks and get off MY thread.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 11 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-09-2015 12:20 PM Tanypteryx has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 26454
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 13 of 409 (752519)
03-09-2015 12:31 PM


http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&m=752175#m752175

You know wood floats, so why aren't all the coal deposits right near the surface. That's what a flood would do.

Because of tides and waves that deposited material in layers with time gaps in between. What, you prefer the nonsensical idea that the coal seams represent a time period?

And people really need to stop talking about what "a flood" would do. Any flood anybody has ever seen would be NOTHING like The Flood.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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NoNukes
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Posts: 9998
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 14 of 409 (752520)
03-09-2015 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Faith
03-09-2015 10:29 AM


Maybe it could be moved to some other forum for miscellaneous or eclectic conversations.

If you cannot be bothered to propose a thread, perhaps your own blog could host the discussion?


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 03-09-2015 10:29 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 03-09-2015 12:33 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26454
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 15 of 409 (752521)
03-09-2015 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by NoNukes
03-09-2015 12:31 PM


Are you going to come to my blog for the discussion?

Anyway, why are you so concerned about this thread if the admins are leaving it alone?


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