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Author Topic:   A holistic understanding on the evolution belief system
TheArtist
Junior Member (Idle past 2650 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 01-05-2012


Message 1 of 2 (777015)
01-24-2016 3:13 PM


Hi,
I have seen how detailed discussions become around the topic of creation vs evolution and I'd like to understand the evolution point of view holistically. These discussions often lead to very low level discussions, where either party cannot participate anymore due to them not understanding the other side's arguments. From this point of view, I would like to propose a discussion on the bigger concepts that most can understand without having a degree in theology, biology or science.
These are the things I have often pondered about on the evolutionary belief system. It is a bit long, but please read through, I would really like to understand your views.
Why would you believe in moral values, "being nice", love or to do anything for fellow humans? The universe does not care about this. To the universe, you are a few trillion atoms arranged in a specific and complex way. It does not care if you live or die, are happy or sad or whether or not you care about anyone but yourself.
Why do you value your own life or those of others? We are all lumps of meat that mean nothing more than being matter in a certain place and time. You will die one day and possibly be of more worth to the earth because of your dead body fertilizing the ground. If you think otherwise, what are you doing in your life that benefits the universe? I'm not at all saying that you are worthless, but from an evolutionary standpoint, what makes you better than a pile of dirt? What makes you think that you are anything special? Do you believe that you are living a good, healthy life and are a good husband or wife, parent or child? The universe doesn't care, so what motivates you to not do everything for your own personal gain?
Some of you believe in "doing good" and being a moral person and a good citizen, but where does this come from? Where does good and bad come from according to you? If you believe that for something to be "good" it has to be something that pleases or helps the most amount of people, what happens if pleasure becomes murdering others, stealing, total disrespect to others, drug abuse etc.? With all these bad things on the rise, it is a scary thought that there are people out there that believe in "what ever makes everyone the happiest". The definition of what is normal and acceptable is continuously changing and things can go into all sorts of wrong directions. If everyone believed in evolution, then what is good, bad and evil would depend on what humans define it as at the time and these values would also evolve into any direction people lean towards. As an example, people who remain pure and do not have sex before marriage, who are virgins are ridiculed for these values in today's society. Why? Does it make other people feel better about themselves that they themselves don't have these values? Does sex before marriage make the world a better place? No, with AIDS on the rise, children growing up in unstable homes due to unplanned pregnancy, abortion and people being left with huge and lasting emotional scars after breaking out of an unhealthy sex based dating relationship. But this is the new normal. So your good and your bad changes with time because the universe does not care. Your lives are at the mercy of the evil in human nature.
Why do you hope, dream, feel joy, feel sadness? Why do you try to accomplish anything? In the end, when you die, everything you did will come to nothing anyway. You will be forgotten and be gone forever.
Perhaps you have romanticized the idea of becoming ash and dust when you die one day - once again one with the earth, but does this thinking not make you depressed? With every passing year, as you get older, do you not get the sense that your one and only life is moving closer to its end? When you find yourself in an aeroplane that is plummeting to the ground and you have minutes before you know you are going to die, do you look back at your life and think to yourself "at least I believed in science and "solid evidence" all my life and was not misled by some religion"? You could have lived the most fantastic life, indulged into your every fantasy and were very happy, but with your imminent death, what do any of those things make you better off than a beggar dying in a cold winter's night that had a miserable life? What does your good doings benefit anyone at this point? If you donated to charity, made people happy by doing good things etc., what do these things help them when they come to their end? Everything they have lived through won't matter when they too die one day. What compels you to be a morally good person at all? Why not do just what you want to satisfy your needs in this short life you have?
The theory of evolution has its basis in natural selection (please correct me if this belief has changed). Survival of the fittest and the best equipped, however, what makes survival good? The universe simply does not care. How does survival make the universe a better place? We think it is good because we have the will to live built into us so it is hard to think otherwise but think for a moment, what gain does the physical world get out of any creature's or even a specie's survival? It simply means another set of atoms arranged in a specific way, moving about. So the very drive behind natural selection is meaningless and of no significance, so why does the theory hang on this principal? Because it is the easiest one for humans to fathom. We see things our way and out of our experiences. We don't like death, it is our most basic drive to survive, but the greater universe does not give a damn so why would it follow our need and the need of any other animals to survive and see it as anything important? Why are we built to grow old and die anyway if surviving is so important? Wouldn't it be better if we lived forever and gained millions of years of experiences and wisdom. There is that off switch, a timer that ticks away built into all of us. Why haven't people or animals lived longer over time? Surely part of natural selection would have "thought" of this. Why is there male and female versions of most of all creatures? Why is there the need for animals to find a partner, court, mate and only then produce offspring? If I was natural selection I would have had only one gender that can produce offspring, have them live forever or at least longer as time passes by. Wouldn't this be more efficient? Just to re-emphasis, why is survival of any significance in the first place?
You spend your lives trying to convince Christians that they should not believe in God and Jesus. Why? Does the universe care what we believe or don't believe? What is believing in something anyway if it is only the arrangement of molecules and chemical reactions in our brains, kind of like minced meat, just more carefully arranged?
Why do our beliefs bother you? If you believe that religion is some kind of false doctrine, and people are misled by it, why do you care? Why are you so bent on trying to convince us that what you believe is right and we are wrong? What difference does our beliefs make in the universe? Does it make the world a bad place? You might ask a Christian the same question - why do we try and convince you that our beliefs are right - it is because we know of something greater and we want to share that with you. Something that gives great meaning to our lives and we keep hoping that you can share in that joy too. This is in contrast to what you are trying to convince us of, which is an absolute meaningless existence. What makes your beliefs better than ours? Will it make our lives better?
Coming back to people getting misled, have you ever considered that evolution might be a false doctrine? Do you realize that a number of evolution theories and concepts still appear in school text books that have already been disproved with today's science? Scientists who provide proof against evolution are often severely discredited, they struggle to find work and are constantly attacked by pro-evolutionists. With evolution, science becomes your god and you live for evidence. You wait for new discoveries and hope that these findings confirm your beliefs (and discards proofs against it). The theories themselves evolve and depend on how accurately humans do experiments and interpret the results as well as how accurately they divulge these findings. The outcome of these experiments are shared with you by humans. Imperfect human beings that have proven to make mistakes in their findings before, but still misled people with their false information for years. Everything you believe in depends on "evidence". Do you feel satisfied that everything you believe is undisputibly proven, no mistakes were made in the experiments as in cases in the past and all the findings are truthfully and correctly relayed back to you without any alteration? What if the findings and results are made public by someone believing in evolution and they tweaked it a bit? The universe does not care so why should they? They do not have any moral obligation to tell the truth and could just as well have their own agenda to mislead you. On top of this, these scientists believe in evolution as well, and they too have a short meaningless life and the only thing they have is to get the most out of their time on earth. People want fame and money and to feel important, so what you are being led to believe is governed by all these nice qualities.
I see a lot of anger coming from evolutionists when debating Christians or other creationists . What makes you so angry? What is it that you gain from belittling our faith? Why do you want us in your camp of beliefs? I see so many childish videos and write-ups from evolutionists "disproving" and mocking our faith.
Have you ever thought further than science and physical evidence to base you beliefs on? What if there is Someone greater than our physical world? Someone that cannot be defined and proven with physical theories and are not bound by their rules and even by time itself? Have you ever for a moment considered how great such and Entity would be? How did the particles and energy come into existence that were to be the start of your big bang theory? This is where our understanding of physics gets stuck. We cannot prove this as we only have an understanding of the world around us, the physical world, what we cant test and observe and you try to define everything with these theories. We can taste, touch, see and smell, do you think we are equipped with everything to know everything in existence now or sometime in the future? Do you think our brains has the capacity to understand absolutely everything one day? Have you ever thought along those lines?
None of these statements are insults to you, I am simply curious as to your thinking so please, feel free to comment and criticize where necessary.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 01-24-2016 7:40 PM TheArtist has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
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(2)
Message 2 of 2 (777023)
01-24-2016 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheArtist
01-24-2016 3:13 PM


Hi TheArtist,
Your thread proposal describes several different topics.
  • If there is no God, where do morals and values come from?
  • How do natural selection and "survival of the fittest" work?
  • Why are evolutionists antagonistic toward religious beliefs?
I'm going to close this thread proposal. Please use it to create a new thread proposal for just one topic.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TheArtist, posted 01-24-2016 3:13 PM TheArtist has not replied

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