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Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Corvid ecologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Interesting news on corvid (crow, jay, raven, nutcracker) behavior and the forests they tend.
Corvids could save forests from the effects of climate changeCrows, jays, and nutcrackers have co-evolved with trees for good reason. quote: So once we understand this behavior we can work with it, provide seeds and let the corvids plant them, saving on labor and benefiting the existing ecological process. This gives me hope that some of the impending doom of global climate change can be ameliorated. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Admin Director Posts: 13038 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2726 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
There's a reason behind my screen handle, and it's not because my actual name is "Jay" (it's not). The blue jay has been my favorite bird since I was a teenager. It's always seemed like an incredibly iconic bird, and it's apparent ability to adapt to both rural and urban areas without being a destructive pest feels sort of like a symbol of conservation, like a small triumph of nature in an urbanized world (I would have preferred to say that in a less cheesy way, however).
Anyway, blue jays have apparently been expanding the northern portion of their range for quite some time now. They apparently weren't seen consistently in the Pacific Northwest until just the past couple of decades. I doubt they're going to "save the forests from the effects of climate change," but they might be able to help the forests migrate as climate change alters habitat suitability (provided the changes don't happen too quickly for them to keep up).-Blue Jay, Ph.D.* *Yeah, it's real Darwin loves you.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I thought this was probably meant to be a nondebate thread since it got put in links and information.
But I'd like to respond to your comment about blue jays that it's hard to like a bird that will bully out all the little birds from the feeder, the chickadees and the finches, the huge raucous bird straddling the thing until it's eaten all the seed or knocked it all to the ground. Second point I wanted to write when RAZD first put up the subject is that the evolution scenario is of course completely assumed, there is no reason whatever to think the behavior of these birds "evolved" to favor forests. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
But I'd like to respond to your comment about blue jays that it's hard to like a bird that will bully out all the little birds, the chickadees and the finches, from the feeder, the huge raucous bird straddling the thing until it's eaten or knocked all the seed to the ground. And that's why I have 3 types of feeders, the tall cylinders with small perches that suit the little birds, purple finches, chickadees, goldfinches and the like, plus flat open feeders for birds like bluejays, cardinals and morning doves, and then suet for nuthatches, sapsuckers and woodpeckers. The "problem" birds I have are (1) starlings that mob the other birds and try to empty all my feeders in a day, and (2) european house "sparrows" (actually weaver finches) that overwhelm the feeders and drive the shyer birds away, again with large numbers in their flocks. Both these birds are not native introduced species that have spread across the continent. They also steal cavity nests from bluebirds and swifts and the like.
Second point I wanted to write when RAZD first put up the subject is that the evolution scenario is of course completely assumed, there is no reason whatever to think the behavior of these birds "evolved" to favor forests. However microevolution must be involved if their behavior does in fact favor them. Just have to make this comment because believers in evolution always assume it's the explanation for everything without the slightest evidence in any particular case. Actually it is an evidence based hypothesis that has been and is currently being tested. Corvids are not the only vectors that the trees use, as squirrels and other animals also spread seeds. Bears that raid squirrel hoards also plant seeds along with a dose of fertilizer ... But the corvids take the seeds the furthest distance, and thus are a much larger vector for spreading the trees to new areas. This isn't some much an evolution issue, as it an ecological one -- the interaction of species in habitats and how the behavior of one affects the behavior of the others, and the balance of the whole ecology. So sit back and marvel at the quiet spread of forests by tireless workers while we argue about what needs to be done. Nature will survive global climate change, the question is what species will survive, which species will change, which will perish, and which one of them will we be. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't live where I could have bird feeders but that sounds like a good solution. I rented a room in a friend's house some years ago, and she had one feeder by the window next to the table where we could eat and watch the birds. The feeder was shaped like a gazebo the blue jay could straddle. She obviously needed more feeders.
But the corvids take the seeds the furthest distance, and thus are a much larger vector for spreading the trees to new areas. This isn't some much an evolution issue, as it an ecological one -- the interaction of species in habitats and how the behavior of one affects the behavior of the others, and the balance of the whole ecology. That I can appreciate. Evolution isn't necessary to any of that. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I don't live where I could have bird feeders but that sounds like a good solution. There are several types of stick-on window feeders:
Put low on an upper window frame you can open the lower one to fill it, or two windows side by side work. A friend of mine has one with a stool inside for the cat ... Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2726 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined: |
Hi, Faith.
Faith writes: I thought this was probably meant to be a nondebate thread since it got put in links and information. Meh.
Faith writes: But I'd like to respond to your comment about blue jays that it's hard to like a bird that will bully out all the little birds from the feeder, the chickadees and the finches, the huge raucous bird straddling the thing until it's eaten all the seed or knocked it all to the ground. The "pecking order" at bird feeders has been reported a lot: it tends to vary a lot depending on where you live. Blue jays actually aren't all that high in the pecking order. At my home, they're regularly bullied by grackles and even cardinals. They're also more inclined to forage on the ground beneath the feeder than on the feeder itself; so if you scatter seeds beneath the feeder or have a feeder that tends to spill a lot, the blue jays might spend more time on the ground. Corvids are also interesting because of their intelligence. They're some of the most intelligent birds, so they have diverse habits, they're adaptable, and they can be quite nasty (though that reputation is largely exaggerated). In those ways, they kind of remind me of humans. The birds I really despise are starlings and house sparrows, because they were intentionally brought here from Europe by people. Back in the late 1800's and early 1900's, people thought introducing new species into an area was good for the wild lands because it "enriched" the environment. In my purist conservation mindset, blue jays, grackles and cardinals have a right to be here, and I love it when native birds can kick the non-native birds' -----.-Blue Jay, Ph.D.* *Yeah, it's real Darwin loves you.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
We have a plague of starlings here too. Not familiar with the house sparrow and its problems.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: House sparrows are real sparrows (genus passer). Next you will be saying that Erithacus rubecula isn't a "real" robin!
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Blue Jay Member (Idle past 2726 days) Posts: 2843 From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts Joined:
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There's only one "real" Robin:
-Blue Jay, Ph.D.* *Yeah, it's real Darwin loves you.
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14174dm Member (Idle past 1137 days) Posts: 161 From: Cincinnati OH Joined:
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I put a feeder on the railing of my third floor apartment balcony.
After a couple days the second floor balcony (including chairs and table) was covered with the bits of seed hull. I moved the feeder.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1052 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
(2) european house "sparrows" (actually weaver finches) that overwhelm the feeders and drive the shyer birds away, again with large numbers in their flocks. I think you've got muddled. Sparrow weavers are African birds closely related neither to sparrows nor to the birds you call sparrows in America.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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I have no bird in this fight as it were but I got curious. According to Google, RAZD is right, the house sparrow is really the weaver finch:
*Controlling House Sparrows. The English sparrow, commonly referred to as the house sparrow, is a species introduced into the United States in the mid 1800s. Brought over to this continent from England, this non-native bird is not actually a sparrow but a Weaver Finch, a sub-species of the more familiar Finch family.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1052 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined:
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*Controlling House Sparrows. The English sparrow, commonly referred to as the house sparrow, is a species introduced into the United States in the mid 1800s. Brought over to this continent from England, this non-native bird is not actually a sparrow but a Weaver Finch, a sub-species of the more familiar Finch family. Well now I'm confused. I think we need some Latin names here for clarity. The 'English sparrow' I thought RAZD was discussing (ie. the bird called a house sparrow in England), is Passer domesticus:
This is not a member of the finch family (Fringillidae) but of the sparrow family (Passeridae). This bird is common all over the US having been introduced from Europe. By 'weaver finch' I understood the Ploceidae or weavers, which include birds known as 'sparrow weavers' such as Plocepasser mahali:
What, then, is this bird that is known as a house sparrow, English sparrow or weaver finch, but which is neither what the English would call a house sparrow nor a weaver?
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