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Author Topic:   PC Gone Too Far
Percy
Member
Posts: 15622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


(2)
Message 1 of 725 (782962)
05-01-2016 11:57 AM


Kentucky Confederate monument to be removed after 120 years, says the headline. Expecting to see another story about racist confederate symbols I instead find that there is absolutely nothing racially offensive about the monument. Here's another image:

There's no visible confederate flag, no offensive confederate symbols that could have racial connotations. It's simply a monument to Southern war dead. What's wrong with that?

Yet apparently the monument has been the 20-year target of Ricky Jones, professor of Pan-African studies at the University of Louisville. He says, "I think this statue being on the campus is somewhat akin to flying the Confederate flag over the (university's) administration building." The monument is a "towering granite and bronze eyesore glorifying the nadir of America's past."

His attitude makes no sense. The monument is an important part of our history. We can't let PC gone wild cause us to destroy the tangible memories our nations past (or in this case remove to a yet-to-be-named location, if that is truly the intention). The Civil War *did* happen, there were two sides, and Southern soldiers died as honorably as Northern soldiers. Southern soldiers deserve monuments every bit as much as Northern soldiers.

Coincidentally I'm in the middle of watching Judgment at Nuremberg. It reminds us that accidents of birth often govern in whose service we toil. I'm sure we'd all like to believe that had we lived in other places and times that we would have behaved honorably and not labored and fought in defense of slavery or of a criminal Nazi state, but the truth is that culture and environment influence belief and behavior, and we would have behaved no differently from everyone else in those circumstances. Examples of honorable and selfless behavior under such circumstances are notable by their exceptionality.

I hope the monument finds a prominent new home.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by NoNukes, posted 05-01-2016 5:00 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 4 by 14174dm, posted 05-01-2016 10:06 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 05-02-2016 2:09 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 10 by Genomicus, posted 05-02-2016 10:09 AM Percy has responded

    
Lammy
Member (Idle past 66 days)
Posts: 3575
From: Chicago Suburbs
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 2 of 725 (782968)
05-01-2016 1:39 PM


I hate PC.

If you say the word "gullible" slowly, it sounds like oranges. Go ahead and try it.

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9541
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 3 of 725 (782973)
05-01-2016 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
05-01-2016 11:57 AM


There's no visible confederate flag, no offensive confederate symbols that could have racial connotations. It's simply a monument to Southern war dead. What's wrong with that?

Let me play devil advocate here. Here are some questions that might be raised in considering whether the statute is just a non-racist celebration of history.

First of all the monument does not really celebrate all of the southern dead, does it? It celebrates a few dead white folks who fought for the south. The south's cause is not one we should be celebrating, Further, Kentucky was a part of the union for the bulk of the civil war.

As for statues that simply celebrate southern dead, is that really a neutral proposition? Where are the statutes celebrating, for example, the British soldiers who fought bravely during the revolutionary war?

And just what particular people are being honored by that statue? Is it generally for the civil war dead or for a few particular people whose names are on the statute? Who were those folk.

Further questions I would ask before concluding that there is no cause for offense.

The statute was apparently erected right at the end of the Reconstruction era. Many monuments were put up at that time for political reasons that included resistance to freedom for black folks. Is this statute one such statute?

The statute is not being destroyed. It is being moved. Maybe such statutes belong somewhere other than on a college campus.

I don't know the answers to my questions, but what I can say is that a racist monument does not have to have the n word on it before it can be legitimately considered racist. I don't have an opinion about whether this particular removal request is purely PC, and I won't have an opinion until I know a lot more about the statute than I see here.

ABE:

Changed 'New Construction' to 'Reconstruction era'.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 05-01-2016 11:57 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
14174dm
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Posts: 115
Joined: 10-12-2015
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 4 of 725 (782978)
05-01-2016 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
05-01-2016 11:57 AM


The Pendulum of PC
Seems to be aimed at fixing the earlier PC status of the installation.

First of all in the 1860 presidential election Kentucky went 63% Unionist (Bell & Douglas) and 36% secessionist (Breckinridge).

Second, over 100k white & 24k black Kentuckians fought for the Union while 24K to 40K fought for the Confederates.

Yet the monument honors only the Kentucky Confederate dead. Not the more numerous Union dead. Or, in my opinion the more honest, all the dead including civilians.

Check out the list of Civil War monuments in Kentucky.
https://en.wikipedia.org/..._Civil_War_monuments_in_Kentucky

Heavy on Confederate. If the Confederates started the war because they lost the election, why should they be honored?

Does anyone know how the Civil War is taught in Kentucky schools? Is it the "War of Northern Aggression" PC crap like my college roommate from South Carolina learned.

Edited by 14174dm, : typo & clarification

Edited by 14174dm, : clarity (I hope)


This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3427
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 7.4


(2)
Message 5 of 725 (782983)
05-02-2016 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
05-01-2016 11:57 AM


It's simply a monument to Southern war dead. What's wrong with that?

Hmm. I don't know, Percy, let me think on this a second. A monument honoring those who fought and died for the cause of treason against the United States. What could possibly be wrong with that? Everything?

Southern soldiers deserve monuments every bit as much as Northern soldiers.

No. No, they don't.

PC Gone Too Far

You are right about that. The PC mistake was made 120 years ago when it was the politically popular thing to put up this monument honoring and glorifying their treason.

I hope the monument finds a prominent new home.

I hope they drop the damned thing and it shatters into dust. Its prominent new home could be the local landfill.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 05-01-2016 11:57 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Hyroglyphx, posted 05-24-2016 8:48 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 6 of 725 (782989)
05-02-2016 7:06 AM


Honorable War Dead Should Be Memorialized
I can add only two things to what was already said in Message 1.

First, there *are* war memorials to Union soldiers in Kentucky. I chose this image because it is unambiguous:

Second, if you're going to tear down Southern war memorials because the South attempted to dissolve their political bands with the North, then Revolutionary War memorials should be torn down, too.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by AZPaul3, posted 05-02-2016 7:45 AM Percy has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3427
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 7.4


Message 7 of 725 (782990)
05-02-2016 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Percy
05-02-2016 7:06 AM


Re: Honorable War Dead Should Be Memorialized
Second, if you're going to tear down Southern war memorials because the South attempted to dissolve their political bands with the North, then Revolutionary War memorials should be torn down, too.

You mean the memorials to the American revolution erected in England? They have some of those in England, but they honor the British soldiers not the colonialists. They do not seem to have any war memorials dedicated to us rebels. I wonder why.

Should we erect war memorials to the British soldiers that fell here during the War of 1812? They have those in Canada, but not here. Why?

Edited by AZPaul3, : another rub.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Percy, posted 05-02-2016 7:06 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 05-02-2016 9:52 AM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 17 by caffeine, posted 05-02-2016 12:52 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 8 of 725 (782995)
05-02-2016 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by AZPaul3
05-02-2016 7:45 AM


Re: Honorable War Dead Should Be Memorialized
The situations you describe are not analogous. You are for some reason are taking the position that conquered and occupied territories shouldn't be permitted to honor their war dead, denying them the right to consecrate, and you're either missing or ignoring the rather obvious point that Revolutionary War dead were no different than Southerners in rebelling against a legitimate government.

By the way, there are memorials here to British soldiers. Here's the first image found by a Google search:

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by AZPaul3, posted 05-02-2016 10:09 PM Percy has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28836
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(3)
Message 9 of 725 (782996)
05-02-2016 10:09 AM


The wheel turns.
I really don't see how any of the examples like this matter enough to get upset in either direction. If some institution's logo or name or statue or flag upsets enough people to persuade the institution to remove or replace the logo or name or statue or flag then that institution should have the right to remove or change the logo or name or statue or flag.

Now if there was an attempt as has happened in other countries to pass a law banning certain logos or names or statues or flags or dress then I think we all need to tremble in our boots and rise up in opposition.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
Genomicus
Member
Posts: 815
Joined: 02-15-2012
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 10 of 725 (782997)
05-02-2016 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
05-01-2016 11:57 AM


There's no visible confederate flag, no offensive confederate symbols that could have racial connotations. It's simply a monument to Southern war dead. What's wrong with that?

I can see both sides to this. On the one hand, the monument is an important part of U.S. history, and removing can be seen as tantamount to pretending history didn't happen as it did.

However, it is also important that we not romanticize the bloodiest chapter in U.S. history. Many people, it seems, think that the Confederacy is something to kinda be proud about. But the systematic destruction and enslavement of Africans carried out by Confederate states is not all that different from the Nazi-created holocaust of 1933-1945. "Honoring" the Confederate dead then becomes something like erecting memorials in honor of S.S. troopers. Is that something you're fine with? Or does that impart a kind of moral legitimacy to the actions of S.S. troopers? I think it is the latter; and believing that memorials to Confederate dead should be cherished is to ignore -- and somewhat legitimize -- the South's holocaust on Africans.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 05-01-2016 11:57 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Percy, posted 05-02-2016 10:35 AM Genomicus has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 11 of 725 (782999)
05-02-2016 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Genomicus
05-02-2016 10:09 AM


Genomicus writes:

On the one hand, the monument is an important part of U.S. history, and removing can be seen as tantamount to pretending history didn't happen as it did.

Yes, as is renaming our buildings.

"Honoring" the Confederate dead then becomes something like erecting memorials in honor of S.S. troopers.

This seems to be the day for poor analogies. Confederate soldiers are analogous to German soldiers, not to the SS that was responsible for carrying out the holocaust.

I think it is the latter; and believing that memorials to Confederate dead should be cherished is to ignore -- and somewhat legitimize -- the South's holocaust on Africans.

To not cherish them is to ignore that we are all victims of our time and place in history.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Genomicus, posted 05-02-2016 10:09 AM Genomicus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Genomicus, posted 05-02-2016 10:38 AM Percy has responded
 Message 14 by NoNukes, posted 05-02-2016 11:11 AM Percy has responded
 Message 18 by 1.61803, posted 05-02-2016 1:18 PM Percy has responded

    
Genomicus
Member
Posts: 815
Joined: 02-15-2012
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 12 of 725 (783000)
05-02-2016 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Percy
05-02-2016 10:35 AM


This seems to be the day for poor analogies. Confederate soldiers are analogous to German soldiers, not to the SS that was responsible for carrying out the holocaust.

Point taken, though I should have clarified that I was referring to Waffen-SS. But you're right, Confederate soldiers would be analogous to German soldiers in my example.

To not cherish them is to ignore that we are all victims of our time and place in history.

So...erect memorials to Allgemeine SS? Weren't they also victims of their time and place in history? How are the two scenarios different exactly?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Percy, posted 05-02-2016 10:35 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 05-02-2016 11:00 AM Genomicus has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 13 of 725 (783002)
05-02-2016 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Genomicus
05-02-2016 10:38 AM


Genomicus writes:

To not cherish them is to ignore that we are all victims of our time and place in history.

So...erect memorials to Allgemeine SS? Weren't they also victims of their time and place in history? How are the two scenarios different exactly?

How forgiving and understanding should people be? Most people hopefully believe there's nothing to forgive concerning an average German man fighting in the German army during WWII. But which soldiers to forgive? Certainly not the ones responsible for the Khatyn massacre, or any other atrocity. But a German soldier had no control over whether his unit would participate in an atrocity. How do you tell the enthusiastic participants from the reluctant ones, keeping in mind that field executions of soldiers for a raft of different charges were rampant in the German army, particularly after the 1944 attempt on Hitler's life.

Or what does a police officer or a mayor or a judge do when criminals take over his national government? Does he resign and refuse to participate, or does he stay and fight to minimize the damage? Many who chose the latter course were later charged with war crimes.

At what point do we stop trying to play God and sift human souls. All human life is sacred, and once departed from this earth we must forgive them.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9541
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 14 of 725 (783004)
05-02-2016 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Percy
05-02-2016 10:35 AM


Yes, as is renaming our buildings.

One could also say that celebrating criminals and traitors is to pretend that their crimess never happened. The revering and celebration of people like Nathan Bedford Forrest and Woodrow Wilson is a complete whitewashing of their histories, and their memorials never include the full truth about these folks.

After the civil war there were attempts to cover over the actual history of the civil war with Lost Cause fake history 1) denied the real causes of the civil war, 2) that promoted the idea that negroes actually loved slavery 3) and that put forth the proposition that the South could have won the war had not a generally or two here and there betrayed Lee. Many monuments and building dedications are the result of such lying of our history. As a result we ended up with schools named after a grand dragon of the Klan who also oversaw the massacring of colored prisoners of war near the end of the civil war.

There are memorials and displays that place our history in proper perspective without presenting a distorted view that these folks were right about something. That proper place is more likely to be in a museum where other symbols are shown.

I understand that people have different opinions about these things and that nobody is likely to convince the other to see their side of things. But some people don't even seem able to even see that there is a legitimate another side. To them offense at these symbols is completely unwarranted and PC.

To not cherish them is to ignore that we are all victims of our time and place in history.

And to celebrate them is to deny them any responsibility for any atrocity they committed despite the fact that many people of their time knew and acted better. And the reality is that these commemorations were and still are feelgood pieces for people who wanted to hang on to that history and extend it into the future. So put that stuff in a museum and let those folks go see it. Or build some context around the museum and remind us of why we should never again allow that stuff to happen. Oh, wait, the daughters of the confederacy don't want you to add that stuff...

It appears that you have gone from complaining about the loss a supposedly neutral monument in your first message to justifying the celebration of folks who have committed the worst crimes imaginable. While I though you had a point in that original message, I cannot join you in any way here. While I am still open to hear why we should keep or remove that Kentucky memorial, I think you've jumped the shark in your defense keeping it.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Percy, posted 05-02-2016 10:35 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 05-02-2016 11:41 AM NoNukes has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28836
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(3)
Message 15 of 725 (783005)
05-02-2016 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Percy
05-02-2016 11:00 AM


Percy writes:

At what point do we stop trying to play God and sift human souls. All human life is sacred, and once departed from this earth we must forgive them.

Forgiving and memorializing are not quite the same thing.

A monument and a law are not quite the same thing.

Yesterday and today are not quite the same thing.

If a city or university or company or organization decides to change a display or symbol or statue or even a whole carving on a mountain do they not have the right to do so?

Public opinions change. Maybe a decade from now the organization may decide to put the monument back up, and if so, then should they not have the right to do so?

When we need to get concerned is when such acts get codified into laws. A law that said all Confederate Flags must be taken down is a law we need to fear. A law that said a monument honoring the US Solders that participated in the Genocide done under the command of President Jackson cannot be built is a law we need to fear.

Public opinion driving an organization to take down a monument is not something to fear.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 05-02-2016 11:00 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
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