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Author Topic:   Dembski on Fundamentalism
PaulK
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Message 1 of 22 (785270)
06-01-2016 5:20 PM


Now that he has left Southwestern Seminary, William Dembski can be open about his Old Earth beliefs again - since he is no longer in danger of being forced out of his job. (Yes, he would have been Expelled)

He has some scathing words, and while his mentions of the situation at Baylor are slanted at the very least, I think that there is more truth in what he says about the Fundamentalists - as he uses the term.

Disillusion with Fundamentalism

I think the attitude described here will seem familiar:


Fundamentalism, as Iím using it, is not concerned with any doctrinal position, however conservative or traditional. Whatís at stake is a harsh, wooden-headed attitude that not only involves knowing one is right, but refuses to listen to, learn from, or understand other Christians, to say nothing of outsiders to the faith. Fundamentalism in this sense is a brain-dead, soul-stifling attitude. I see it as a huge danger for evangelicals.

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Admin
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Message 2 of 22 (785272)
06-01-2016 7:57 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Dembski on Fundamentalism thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
NoNukes
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(1)
Message 3 of 22 (785273)
06-01-2016 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulK
06-01-2016 5:20 PM


I read through the article very quickly, and I am going to do another reading later. My initial impression is that while Dembski does have some interesting observations, his reactions to people who are less conservative than he mirror the things he is complaining about regarding fundamentalists.

The other thing that came across was that the ideas he is excoriating fundamentalists for rejecting, and branding him as a heretic are pretty bizarre. Dembski knew exactly what his situation was, namely that he was an OEC surrounded by YECs who have always considered OEC theology to be Christians compromising with materialism. Why is he so surprised that presenting a theory that appears to be bending over backwards to accommodate OEC would not go over well.

There is a lot to be learned from Dembski's experience, but I think most of us wouldn't find ourselves running with that crowd or caring about their opinions of us, or even working at a place where their opinions could cost us our job.

Finally, I think Dembski himself could benefit from a little introspection.

Just my initial impression...

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


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jar
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Message 4 of 22 (785274)
06-01-2016 9:33 PM


Both YEC and OEC can exist only through willful ignorance.
What he seems to have forgotten or is ignoring is the fact that both OEC and YEC can exist only so long as the individual is willfully ignorant. Both exist only so long as the individual actively denies reality. Special Creation and a literal Adam & Eve are as fully refuted as Young Earth or the Biblical Floods.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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New Cat's Eye
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Message 5 of 22 (785276)
06-01-2016 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
06-01-2016 9:33 PM


Re: Both YEC and OEC can exist only through willful ignorance.
Special Creation and a literal Adam & Eve are as fully refuted as Young Earth or the Biblical Floods.

Resurrection too?


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nwr
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(3)
Message 6 of 22 (785280)
06-01-2016 11:03 PM


Dembski avoids the insanity of YEC beliefs.

Instead, he explains evil in the world that predated Adam and Eve as a retroactive effect of Adam's fall. That's even more insane.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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PaulK
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Message 7 of 22 (785282)
06-02-2016 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by nwr
06-01-2016 11:03 PM


I won't say that the idea is sane, but Dembski is hardly the only one to suggest it. Randman's version was even more insane - and I'd come across the general idea before that.

Edited by PaulK, : Clarification


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NoNukes
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Message 8 of 22 (785286)
06-02-2016 2:50 AM


I made a more careful reading an I would not change much about my initial post. I could not read this particular part without reflecting on the irony it represented...

You have to understand, I did my theological education at Princeton Seminary, which was representative of the theological liberalism that to my mind had sold out the faith. The pattern that always seemed to repeat itself was that Christian institutions and denominations that had started out faithful to the Gospel eventually veered away and denied their original faith.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


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jar
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Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 9 of 22 (785303)
06-02-2016 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by New Cat's Eye
06-01-2016 10:17 PM


Re: Both YEC and OEC can exist only through willful ignorance.
Resurrection too?

No idea on that one and in fact I can't really imagine anyway to even test that concept.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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PaulK
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Posts: 13313
Joined: 01-10-2003
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Message 10 of 22 (785304)
06-02-2016 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by NoNukes
06-02-2016 2:50 AM


What is also interesting is that - despite the fact that Dembskis treatment at Southwestern was worse than anything that has actually happened to creationists or ID supporters elsewhere - there has been little pushback from the ID movement or calls for academic freedom. Even Dembski only seems to think that the range of acceptable views should be a little wider, not that the threat of immediate sacking for presenting a theologically unacceptable viewpoint is inherently wrong.

And I think this is related to your observation. I think that the ID movement in general has no objection to firing people for taking positions that THEY find unacceptable. They have no real commitment to academic freedom as a principle. It's just a convenient thing to say, to try and get what they want.

Edited by PaulK, : Tidy up a minor mismatch


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Pressie
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Posts: 1836
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 11 of 22 (785305)
06-02-2016 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
06-02-2016 7:38 AM


Re: Both YEC and OEC can exist only through willful ignorance.
Jar writes:

No idea on that one and in fact I can't really imagine anyway to even test that concept.

I can think of lots of ways to test that concept.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


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jar
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Posts: 29628
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 12 of 22 (785308)
06-02-2016 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Pressie
06-02-2016 8:06 AM


Re: Both YEC and OEC can exist only through willful ignorance.
Pressie writes:

Jar writes:

No idea on that one and in fact I can't really imagine anyway to even test that concept.

I can think of lots of ways to test that concept.

Great, perhaps you could start a thread on the topic but first you will have to describe which of the many concepts of Resurrection you are testing.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Pressie
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Posts: 1836
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 13 of 22 (785310)
06-02-2016 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
06-02-2016 8:19 AM


Re: Both YEC and OEC can exist only through willful ignorance.
jar writes:

Great, perhaps you could start a thread on the topic but first you will have to describe which of the many concepts of Resurrection you are testing.

May I remind you that your post was:

"No idea on that one and in fact I can't really imagine anyway to even test that concept."

Your post included the phrase 'that concept'. That concept can be tested. I can think of lots of ways to test 'that concept'.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


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jar
Member
Posts: 29628
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 14 of 22 (785311)
06-02-2016 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Pressie
06-02-2016 8:32 AM


Re: Both YEC and OEC can exist only through willful ignorance.
Yes, "that concept". I can't even list all the various interpretations of "that concept" much less figure out a way to test them.

But it might be a fun discussion so propose the topic. But this thread is not the place to expound on the subject.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Faith
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Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 15 of 22 (785313)
06-02-2016 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
06-02-2016 8:53 AM


Re: Both YEC and OEC can exist only through willful ignorance.
God of course considers those who deny the Flood to be the willfully ignorant:

2 Peter 3:5-6 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

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