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Author Topic:   GDR On Faith
Phat
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Posts: 9268
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1 of 78 (789452)
08-14-2016 6:49 AM


GDR writes:

Just a thought on your post. Isn't there a difference between knowing God and knowing the details of how He brought us into existence. For that matter isn't there a difference between knowing that God is good and loving and knowing in detail what the future holds in store.

As I've said to Faith a number of times, the faith is Christianity not Biblianity. Too often, IMHO, the church has made a false idol out of the Bible. The Bible is the "word" of God. Jesus is the "Word" of God. Read through the first chap. of the Gospel of John.

The Bible is a collection of books as you well know. We have to read different authors within the context of the world they lived in and know that we cam learn from the times the get it right as well as the times they got it wrong. Although many try, you can't square the loving forgiving God we see in Jesus to the vengeful God that is sometimes portrayed in the OT. It can't be done. That does not mean that we can't find the loving God in the pages of the OT as well. If we take the Bible as inerrant we wind up with a god that calls us to love our neighbour and our enemy, but sometimes wants us to slaughter them, men women and children. Does that make sense to you?

Can we bump this over into another topic away from the science forum?

GDR asked a good question in Faith vs Science and I wanted to start a new topic.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 08-16-2016 12:49 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 77 by Hawkins, posted 08-25-2016 4:07 PM Phat has responded

  
Adminnemooseus
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Message 2 of 78 (789454)
08-15-2016 12:30 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the GDR On Faith thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9268
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 3 of 78 (789541)
08-16-2016 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
08-14-2016 6:49 AM


Reply To GDR
Isn't there a difference between knowing God and knowing the details of how He brought us into existence. For that matter isn't there a difference between knowing that God is good and loving and knowing in detail what the future holds in store.

I can know someone quite well. Even though I know the person---a best friend, for instance--I may not know the details of many incidents and accomplishments in their lives.

And God can be good and loving and still be no guarantee of a future free from hurt and pain. Just look at Job.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 08-14-2016 6:49 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 2:03 PM Phat has responded

  
GDR
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Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 4 of 78 (789561)
08-16-2016 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
08-16-2016 12:49 PM


Phat writes:

I can know someone quite well. Even though I know the person---a best friend, for instance--I may not know the details of many incidents and accomplishments in their lives.

Of course. All I am saying is that it does not require believing in an inerrant Bible to know and understand the nature of God. I also go further and say that believing in an inerrant Bible leads to a distortion of the true nature of God that we see in Jesus.

An inerrant understanding of the Bible leads to belief in a god that is inconsistent and is guilty of using situational ethics. The problem has been IMHO that some Christians have taken the focus off of Jesus and put it on the Bible. They are worshiping a false idol.

Remember the Bible is made up of 66 books with hundreds of authors. Why should we give them all the same credibility. However, as Christians we supposedly see Jesus as the embodiment of the wisdom of God so that should be the filter or lens that we use to understand where the Biblical authors got it right and where they got it wrong.

When we use that filter we can see that when the authors claimed that God told them to commit genocide or engage in public stonings for minor offences we can be sure that they got it wrong, and take it as a lesson that just because someone says that God has told them to do something that we should be skeptical.

Phat writes:

And God can be good and loving and still be no guarantee of a future free from hurt and pain. Just look at Job.

Sure, but I don't understand how that fits with the discussion.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 08-16-2016 12:49 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 08-16-2016 5:41 PM GDR has responded
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 5:59 PM GDR has responded
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 08-17-2016 1:13 PM GDR has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9268
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 5 of 78 (789571)
08-16-2016 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by GDR
08-16-2016 2:03 PM


Credibility
Remember the Bible is made up of 66 books with hundreds of authors. Why should we give them all the same credibility. However, as Christians we supposedly see Jesus as the embodiment of the wisdom of God so that should be the filter or lens that we use to understand where the Biblical authors got it right and where they got it wrong.
True. Of course we could argue that just as hundreds of authors cant or shouldn't share the same credibility we could argue that there are millions of Christians...how do we determine their credibility?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 2:03 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2016 6:01 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 10 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 7:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
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Posts: 24003
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 6 of 78 (789574)
08-16-2016 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by GDR
08-16-2016 2:03 PM


you have a very small God
Remember the Bible is made up of 66 books with hundreds of authors. Why should we give them all the same credibility.

You don't think God has the power to direct the writing of His word whether by a few or many people? "The word of the Lord came to me" is how most of the prophets present their writings, as coming FROM God Himself. That's how all the books of the Bible are understood to have been written, by "holy men of old" writing things down as the Holy Spirit moved them. The human personalities of the writers affect how they present their part of the revelation, their style, their human experiences, but the content, the message, comes straight from God. ALL OF IT. Not "by the will of man."

The word "prophecy" is generally used to refer to ALL the words that come straight from God through the writers of the scripture, not merely specifically the writings of the prophets themselves:

2Peter 1:19-21 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

You are very much in error when you impute any of it to the will of man; in fact what you are doing is imposing your OWN fallible human will on God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 2:03 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 7:49 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4417
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 7 of 78 (789575)
08-16-2016 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
08-16-2016 5:41 PM


Re: Credibility
Phat writes:

True. Of course we could argue that just as hundreds of authors cant or shouldn't share the same credibility we could argue that there are millions of Christians...how do we determine their credibility?

A bigger question is why is anything ambiguous?

This was a big thing after all - God feels that the situation is so serious that he involves himself in earthly matters to the extent that he sends his 'son' (how rediculous is that idea?) to send a message to us all. But the message is so garbled that we're still arguing about it 2,000 years later. This is supposed to be a God? Leave it out.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 08-16-2016 5:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 6:17 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 24003
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 8 of 78 (789577)
08-16-2016 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Tangle
08-16-2016 6:01 PM


Re: Credibility
This was a big thing after all - God feels that the situation is so serious that he involves himself in earthly matters to the extent that he sends his 'son' (how rediculous is that idea?) to send a message to us all. But the message is so garbled that we're still arguing about it 2,000 years later. This is supposed to be a God? Leave it out.

God has never NOT been involved with His creation. He made the creation and human beings partly to deal with the rebellion of Satan and his fallen angels: The best theology shows that humanity is designed in the image of God so that we will ultimately have the power to displace the satanic hordes in a restored universe ruled by righteousness.

Since we fell just as Satan and his hordes did we have to be redeemed and regenerated, and that is possible because we ARE the image of God. The demonic hordes can't be redeemed so they spend all their time trying to spoil us so we can't be either. Such as by convinding us they don't exist and that God isn't real and the reason Jesus came is "garbled."

There is nothing garbled about the sacrifice of Christ. He didn't come with a "message" He came to die for us to redeerm us from sin so that we can ultimately inherit a more perfect creation even than the original one, but also take the place of the demonic hordes. Forever.

Nothing credible there of course. Just true.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 7 by Tangle, posted 08-16-2016 6:01 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 4417
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 9 of 78 (789579)
08-16-2016 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
08-16-2016 6:17 PM


Re: Credibility
Faith writes:

Nothing credible there of course.

Agreed.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 6:17 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
GDR
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Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 10 of 78 (789582)
08-16-2016 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
08-16-2016 5:41 PM


Re: Credibility
Phat writes:

True. Of course we could argue that just as hundreds of authors cant or shouldn't share the same credibility we could argue that there are millions of Christians...how do we determine their credibility?

I guess we have to make our own decisions about that but we should do it by their consistency with what Jesus taught. Let's face it. One big reason that Biblical inerrancy is popular is that someone can find a passage in the Bible to prove pretty much anything they want. The trouble is that very often you can find a passage to prove just the opposite. There is much about the Christian faith that is ambiguous. If it weren't so we would have absolute knowledge and we would largely lose our freedom to choose.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 08-16-2016 5:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Taq, posted 08-18-2016 1:05 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 11 of 78 (789583)
08-16-2016 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
08-16-2016 5:59 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Faith writes:

You don't think God has the power to direct the writing of His word whether by a few or many people? "The word of the Lord came to me" is how most of the prophets present their writings, as coming FROM God Himself. That's how all the books of the Bible are understood to have been written, by "holy men of old" writing things down as the Holy Spirit moved them. The human personalities of the writers affect how they present their part of the revelation, their style, their human experiences, but the content, the message, comes straight from God. ALL OF IT. Not "by the will of man."

The word "prophecy" is generally used to refer to ALL the words that come straight from God through the writers of the scripture, not merely specifically the writings of the prophets themselves:

I suppose God could dictate what each of the likely hundreds of people wrote that wound up in the scriptures. That isn't the question. The question is, did He do that, and I suggest that it is very clear that He didn't

I know you believe that and that you still believe it when Jesus corrects some of the OT writings. God can use all the books of the Bible to reach out to us, but when you are understanding it as inerrant you wind up with a message that IMHO God never intended. If you want to believe in a God that orders genocide and public stoning for difficult kids and minor offences, then so be it. I believe in God, whose nature we see perfectly embodied by Jesus.

Faith writes:

You are very much in error when you impute any of it to the will of man; in fact what you are doing is imposing your OWN fallible human will on God.


No, I am using my own fallible human heart and mind in my understanding of God, just as any Christian does including you. I could hardly impose my will upon Him. You are vastly exaggerating my powers.

What you are doing is replacing Jesus as the 2nd person in the Trinity with the Bible.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 5:59 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 08-16-2016 8:00 PM GDR has responded
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 8:20 PM GDR has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9268
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 12 of 78 (789585)
08-16-2016 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by GDR
08-16-2016 7:49 PM


Re: you have a very small God
What you are doing is replacing Jesus as the 2nd person in the Trinity with the Bible.
Although keep in mind that John tells us that Jesus is the Word made Flesh. Through Him all things were created. That being said, I dont believe that every word of the 66 books is inerrant nor dictated solely by God.

Critics would accuse me of picking and choosing which words to use.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 7:49 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 10:01 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24003
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 13 of 78 (789587)
08-16-2016 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by GDR
08-16-2016 7:49 PM


Re: you have a very small God
No, you are reducing Jesus to suit your fallen mind by refusing to accept the whole word of God.

And of course you can impose your will on God. That's what we all do when we disobey Him anyway, but picking and choosing from the Bible according to what you approve and disapprove is certainly imposing your will on Him by contradicting Him.

And I thought I might as well bring over a post I wrote on the other thread in response to what became your OP here:

Although many try, you can't square the loving forgiving God we see in Jesus to the vengeful God that is sometimes portrayed in the OT. It can't be done. That does not mean that we can't find the loving God in the pages of the OT as well.

What do you do with the NT passages that describe Jesus as that vengeful God?

(Oh I'm sure I know: you tell yourself they were written by people who hold opinions you don't like so therefore they must be false. Oh well.)

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Revelation 14:9-10 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb....

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 7:49 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 8:25 PM Faith has responded
 Message 28 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 9:54 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
jar
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Posts: 28458
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 14 of 78 (789589)
08-16-2016 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
08-16-2016 8:20 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Isn't the Bible great Faith? There are so many contradictions included that you can pick and choose whatever you want, vengeful Jesus passages and forgiving Jesus passages. But as to you Thessalonians quote I would think it certainly would apply to many if not most so called "Biblical Christians".

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 8:20 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 08-16-2016 8:52 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24003
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 15 of 78 (789592)
08-16-2016 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
08-16-2016 8:25 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Isn't the Bible great Faith? There are so many contradictions included that you can pick and choose whatever you want, vengeful Jesus passages and forgiving Jesus passages.

There is no need to choose, the Bible is very clear that Jesus came the first time as the Suffering Servant (Isaiah 53) who died to save us, but will come the second and final time as the conquerer.

Do you remember that He read Isaiah 61 in the synagogue ...

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives...

and then announced, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your ears."

Meaning that He Himself was the fulfillment of it. But He only read the "nice" part, the description of Himself as the Good Guy that GDR and so many others like so much.

And left out the part that goes on to include as part of His mission,

{Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God...

The Day of Vengeance was not His mission on His First Advent; but it will be on His Second Advent, which is what both those passages I quoted are about, His return as the conquerer with all His angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance....

But as to you Thessalonians quote I would think it certainly would apply to many if not most so called "Biblical Christians".

Some of us may be with Him when He returns, but mustering angels and flaming fire is a bit beyond our job description.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 8:25 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 08-16-2016 9:00 PM Faith has responded

    
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