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Author Topic:   Introduction
Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 110
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1 of 31 (789977)
08-23-2016 12:54 AM


Hello EvC! I probably should have done this to begin with, anyhow. I have been reading here sporadically for several years, so I know quite a bit about most of the views you guys have discussed. You know next to nothing about me, so here's a bit of background.

I am 28 years old, live in Tasmania and work as an engineer. I am married with a 10yr old step-son and a 7 month old baby boy. I rejected super natural explanations at the age of 12 when a priest was brought in to teach scripture at school. I remember thinking something along the lines of 'Santa all over again'. The night of the first scripture class I asked my mother to write me a note excusing me from attending in future. She refused, but I had already made up my mind.

I see all the worlds religions all claiming to be the right one and promising spiritual fulfilment to those who follow. I see the people of all these religions ALL claiming it works. The only thing that basically all religions have in common, is that they promote social interaction and unity behind their ideals. I am left concluding that social interaction, unity and feeling a part of something bigger, are the real sources of human spiritual experience. By accepting a particular dogma, people are limiting themselves spiritually rather than opening up, in my opinion. Spiritual experiences are not limited to religion unless you define them as such.

It follows then, that humans should be able to have spiritual experiences absent religion. The goosebumps and tingle up the spine you get at a sporting event when the 100k people roar in unison is just as much a spiritual experience as the same thing at a church gathering. The feeling I got when my wife wanted to give up during child birth and I encouraged her over the line, I can only describe as spiritual. Sex with someone with whom you share a deep emotional connection is as spiritually fulfilling, probably more so, than loving any deity.

To me, humanism is not about rejecting God or concluding no god. It's about realising that gods cause division and setting them aside for practical reasons. While we can't agree that prayer and fasting will help the impoverished, surely we can agree that sending resources and engineers to build infrastructure will. It may not have all the answers to our problems, but putting aside our differences and coming together to get behind the things we can agree on is surely the first step toward a better future.

I don't see humanity as having a special or ultimate purpose. I believe our self-imposed purpose should be to colonize space. This requires that we reform our system to one that puts sustainability before profit, we must use our remaining resources wisely to ensure we can survive long enough to develop the technology we need to colonise space.

Sorry if this is jumbled, I wrote it on my phone while the boss wasn't looking at work so that's my worldview in a nutshell.. Critique away!


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 08-23-2016 3:30 AM Riggamortis has responded
 Message 5 by Stile, posted 08-23-2016 10:53 AM Riggamortis has responded
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 08-23-2016 11:59 AM Riggamortis has not yet responded
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 Message 10 by dwise1, posted 08-24-2016 1:20 AM Riggamortis has responded

  
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1781
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 31 (789979)
08-23-2016 3:26 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Introduction thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

I figured the Columnist forum was as good as any. Readers feel free to ask Riggamortis any questions about life in general. Im sure that even at the tender age of 28 he is a font of information!

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9268
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 3 of 31 (789980)
08-23-2016 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Riggamortis
08-23-2016 12:54 AM


Future Vision
So do you think the world will learn to get along?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Riggamortis, posted 08-23-2016 12:54 AM Riggamortis has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Riggamortis, posted 08-23-2016 6:40 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 110
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 3.0


(4)
Message 4 of 31 (789987)
08-23-2016 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
08-23-2016 3:30 AM


Re: Future Vision
I am hopeful, it is hard to maintain an optimistic outlook though, given the current situation. Have you heard the Cherokee story about the wolves that fight inside us?

An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy.
“It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.” He continued, “The other is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.”
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”
The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”

There is wisdom to be found in tradition and religion, but we can't equate religion/tradition with wisdom. Christianity feeds the evil wolf by imposing undue guilt on its followers. Capitalism feeds it by promoting and rewarding greed. If we start feeding the right wolf, all of us, then I have no doubt we can accomplish great things.

We need system wide change, starting with the finance/economic model. Money is to labour as matter is to energy, we need a financial/economic system built around that fact. That would be the first major step in my opinion. An economic enlightenment.

I use social media to put the real issues in people's faces, I've just started making my own pages and will make a website eventually. Then I'll go into politics if I have to. I refuse to go to the grave knowing I did nothing to change this shitty system, imposed on me at birth. Doing so would be the real sin, the way I see it.

Edited by Riggamortis, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 2851
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 5 of 31 (790001)
08-23-2016 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Riggamortis
08-23-2016 12:54 AM


I feel like doing a whole lot of quotes. So here you go!

Riggamortis writes:

Hello EvC!

Hi Riggamortis.

I probably should have done this to begin with, anyhow. I have been reading here sporadically for several years, so I know quite a bit about most of the views you guys have discussed. You know next to nothing about me, so here's a bit of background.

Don't worry about it. Around here, the more the merrier. Have fun!

I am 28 years old, live in Tasmania and work as an engineer.

I'm 37, Canada and also an engineer.

I am married with a 10yr old step-son and a 7 month old baby boy.

No kids for me, and that's the way I like it!

I rejected super natural explanations at the age of 12 when a priest was brought in to teach scripture at school. I remember thinking something along the lines of 'Santa all over again'. The night of the first scripture class I asked my mother to write me a note excusing me from attending in future. She refused, but I had already made up my mind.

Ha ha. I grew up in a Catholic household. I also had neighbours who were Baptist Christians. I ended up going to both churches for a while as the Baptists were good friends and their dad was the Pastor there and I hung out with them a lot. I got an up close look at the differences and similarities between two variances of religion. It became clear to me pretty fast what was important and what was "extra."

I am left concluding that social interaction, unity and feeling a part of something bigger, are the real sources of human spiritual experience

I would say that social interaction, unity and feeling a part of something bigger are *A* source of human spiritual experience.
If you can prove to me that they are the *ONLY* ones... then I'll change my mind

But I certainly agree with the idea.
If you focus on God because He's full of love and goodness and all that... why not cut out the middle-man? Why not simply focus on love and goodness and all that? Without the extra attachment, focusing on love and goodness is more direct and can produce much greater results for a full life... for me, anyway. To me, God is just another weight dragging me away from focusing on the parts of reality that are actually important and full of good-ness.

By accepting a particular dogma, people are limiting themselves spiritually rather than opening up, in my opinion.

For the most part, I agree.
However, I would say that there's at least someone out there that actually receives great, genuine human spiritual experiences from following dogma. A true soldier who finds great comfort in following orders and "knowing" that those orders are always good and perfect even if they don't understand them.

Not me.
But maybe someone

Spiritual experiences are not limited to religion unless you define them as such.

I would say that spiritual experiences are not limited to *anything* unless you define them as such.

It follows then, that humans should be able to have spiritual experiences absent religion.

Fully agreed.
I would also point out that some folks will receive their greatest spiritual experiences from religion, though.
It's up to all of us to do some personal soul-searching and figure out what works best for us.

Sex with someone with whom you share a deep emotional connection is as spiritually fulfilling, probably more so, than loving any deity.

For some, yes.
For others, no.

My opinion is to be honest about such things. Allow others to be honest about such things.
If you find the greatest spiritual experience from sex, good on you! Have lots of sex!
If you find the greatest spiritual experience from religion, good on you! Have lots of religion!

As long as we're not hurting others (proper consent between adults for sex and religion and anything else...), I don't see a problem with allowing people to individually figure such things out on their own, and making sure we can all group up with like-minded individuals (or not) as we each see fit.

The idea is that each person is an individual. We all have the same basic "right" to find what works best for us and how to get along with the rest of society. I think we should all have to work, in some way, to contribute to that society. But in our free time, I wouldn't put any restrictions on anyone at all (other than not hurting others...). Want to have sex? Find other people who also want sex, go nuts! Want to focus on religions or anything else? Find other people who want the same thing and also go nuts!

It's about realising that gods cause division and setting them aside for practical reasons.

The problem here is that you're doing the same thing.

Pushy, overbearing religious-people will say that they have it right, and you're doing it wrong.
By definitively saying "gods cause division..." you're being pushy and overbearing and saying you have it right and others are doing it wrong.

My opinion is that no one "has is right" because there is no "right."
There is a "right for Stile" and a "right for Riggamortis" and a "right for Phat" and a "right" for every individual on earth (in the universe?)

I'm sure there's a way to worship gods in such a way that does not cause division, that allows for others to make their own choices, that rejoices instead of shys-away-from other people not believing and receiving spiritual experiences from elsewhere.

While we can't agree that prayer and fasting will help the impoverished, surely we can agree that sending resources and engineers to build infrastructure will. It may not have all the answers to our problems, but putting aside our differences and coming together to get behind the things we can agree on is surely the first step toward a better future.

I do agree that actually doing things to help is much better than praying for help

I don't see humanity as having a special or ultimate purpose.

Collectively? No, me neither. I don't think it logically works with the word "purpose."
"Purpose" is subjective, therefore, it's logically individually-related... therefore, there can't possibly be some "grand purpose" that *EVERYONE* agrees with, perfectly. It's just not the way humans work.

I believe our self-imposed purpose should be to colonize space.

Nice!

My self-imposed purpose is to make life as comfortable/fun/good as possible for my family and friends I care about most.

(Colonizing space) requires that we reform our system to one that puts sustainability before profit, we must use our remaining resources wisely to ensure we can survive long enough to develop the technology we need to colonise space.

Although I have no personal desire to colonize space, I fully agree with your plans of sustainability before profit and using resources wisely.

Sorry if this is jumbled, I wrote it on my phone while the boss wasn't looking at work so that's my worldview in a nutshell.. Critique away!

Sounds pretty good to me.
As you know, there's lots to discuss about around here. Enjoy your stay and have fun!!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Riggamortis, posted 08-23-2016 12:54 AM Riggamortis has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Riggamortis, posted 08-24-2016 9:53 AM Stile has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 6 of 31 (790005)
08-23-2016 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Riggamortis
08-23-2016 12:54 AM


Riggamortis writes:

I am 28 years old, live in Tasmania and work as an engineer.


Errol Flynn was from Tasmania. I'm a fountain of useless information, I have a short attention span and I'm usually off topic.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Riggamortis, posted 08-23-2016 12:54 AM Riggamortis has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28453
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 7 of 31 (790006)
08-23-2016 12:01 PM


Welcome home. Pull up a stump and set a spell.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5508
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 8 of 31 (790012)
08-23-2016 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Riggamortis
08-23-2016 12:54 AM


I am 28 years old, live in Tasmania and work as an engineer.

These damned Aussies are everywhere. (I grew up in Australia (Perth), so I guess I'm one of the damned).

I am left concluding that social interaction, unity and feeling a part of something bigger, are the real sources of human spiritual experience.

That seems more-or-less right.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Riggamortis, posted 08-23-2016 12:54 AM Riggamortis has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11185
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(4)
Message 9 of 31 (790022)
08-23-2016 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Riggamortis
08-23-2016 6:40 AM


Re: Future Vision

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2687
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 10 of 31 (790029)
08-24-2016 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Riggamortis
08-23-2016 12:54 AM


Rigga!

I've been an atheist for over half a century, ever since I started reading the Bible and quickly realized that I just couldn't believe that stuff. Then came the "Jesus Freak Movement" of circa 1970 when all the drug-dulled hippies "got hooked on Jesus", causing a near-exponential explosion of fundamentalist Christian church membership (I am also a software engineer with an additional degree in applied math, so I know that an actual exponential explosion is something quite different) Anyway, several family members of a friend converted and I became something of a "fellow traveller" during which time I learned a lot about their theology and about their mind-set but without ever believing the same stuff -- for that part, the more I learned the more I just could not believe that stuff.

Lately, I've been hearing all kinds of different definitions for all kinds of different kinds of atheism -- strong, weak, whatever. I am an atheist in that I do not believe in the gods and I am agnostic in that I do not believe that we can actually know anything about the supernatural, since it lies outside our ability to know. Do the gods exist? Yes, they all exist, all the myriads upon myriads that we have ever dreamed of. By the same token, so does Gandalf, and Frodo of the Nine Fingers, and Captain America (I personally grew up on DC comics, but Captain America!!!). We created them all, we gave them all their stories, and their stories are all vitally important!

Do supernatural beings actually exist? Who knows? Does the supernatural itself even exist? Who knows? Does a supernatural being that we would identify as being "God" exist? Who knows? Nobody knows! That's the agnostic aspect; nobody can possibly know! Nobody could ever possibly wrap his head around The Infinite, which is "God". All anyone could ever possibly do is come up with an analogy, with a Man-made symbol that he chooses to call "God". Nothing that any Man calls "God" can be anything more than a pale symbolic representation.

So then, as an agnostic, I look at the gods that other people try to offer me and I recognize them for what they are, so, as an atheist, I realize that I cannot believe in any of the gods that they try to convince me of.

Spirituality and spiritual experiences are a different matter. We are all human and we are all neurally wired the same. We share the same emotions. We are all equally capable of being awe-struck regardless of individual theology. We are all capable of the same spiritual experiences, though fundamentalist Christians have expressed complete bewilderment at any atheist being able to experience that, just from their own definitions.

At the same time, an atheist may be tempted to rationally analyze an experience instead of just experiencing it. One of my friends had been taught to go to the front row of the theater and immerse herself in the experience of the movie. I was a German major, which meant I was the same thing as an English major but with much more logical material (just joking! Especially when you look at the Romantic Period). My training is in story structure and development, foreshadowing and why they are telling the story in just that manner. My movie experience will be different from hers. Which is better? Why should it be?

Sex with someone with whom you share a deep emotional connection is as spiritually fulfilling, probably more so, than loving any deity.

We appear to share an attitude here. But that is ignoring a rather wide range of attitudes and experiences. Not that you could understand them, nor most certainly could I, but they do still exist. Have you ever read "Der Steppenwolf"? Do so. Not for everyone; only for the crazy (when you've read it, you will appreciate that).

So then, we've all heard this argument before. So many different religions, but only one of them can be right. Really? How's about none of them? Or all of them? Or both?

Every religion gets something wrong. Especially when they get down into the details. "Be excellent to each other." That is something for all of them to get right. "Hate the ones who use the wrong number of fingers to do a blessing and do not suffer them to live!" Yeah, that one's not a keeper. Someone once published a parody of the evolutionary Tree of Life, only it was an evolutionary tree of Christianity which had ended up so terminally splintered so as to conclude that it could not have possibly sprung from an original "Christ event".

So all Christian theologies get some things right (eg, "Be excellent to each other.") while they get a lot of things wrong (too numerous to list). So, all theologies get lots of things wrong, so they are all wrong. And yet against all odds most theologies get some things right (eg, "Be excellent to each other."), so most all of them are also right.

There's something I've been seeing of late. I'm a normal. Opposed to that we have the fundamentalists and the conservative Christians and the evangelicals, etc. But all that group that we normals clump together are protesting. I had one woman protest vehemently against being classified as "evangelical". And another lodge a similar protest.

The point here is that they all have their own individual "God" ideas that require them to splinter even further apart.

While we can't agree that prayer and fasting will help the impoverished, surely we can agree that sending resources and engineers to build infrastructure will. It may not have all the answers to our problems, but putting aside our differences and coming together to get behind the things we can agree on is surely the first step toward a better future.

I had associated with a Unitarian-Universalist church. Our call to prayer resolved down to : "Knowing that prayer does not change things, but prayer changes us and we are the agents of change." In my Boy Scouts of American experience (a helluva story of religious discrimination!!!!!!!!!!!), in our last sons' Scout Troop when the parents had their meeting which began with a prayer, I led a Unitarian prayer, that one. It was the very last Unitarian prayer ever allowed.

Now consider this anecdote. A man had grown a very beautiful garden, most extraordinary. A clergyman passing by complimented him on what he and God had done with that garden. The man, most modestly, said, you should have seen what a mess it was when only God was taking care of it.

The feeling I got when my wife wanted to give up during child birth and I encouraged her over the line, I can only describe as spiritual.

She didn't want to, but rather she had no other choice. A co-worker talked about his wife's giving birth. She was finally fed up with the whole thing so she demanded that he call her a taxi. "OK, you're a taxi." Really, where could she have expected to go?

I was at school when I got the call for our first. Her water had broken, but the contractions were still very mild. On base, we lived right across from the base hospital, so I brought her some magazines to read. A few hours later, the nurse came in and saw the magazines and decided, "Hell no!" So they administered pitosin to induce. She freaked out since those were the pre-menstrual cramps she had experienced years before.

I was in the delivery room with my wife all the way. And all the way I was always concentrated on her and on her needs. They practically had to drag me away in order to pay any attention to my new, my first son.

I don't know that I could have described that as spiritual. All my concentration was on my wife's well-being.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Riggamortis, posted 08-23-2016 12:54 AM Riggamortis has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 08-24-2016 8:20 AM dwise1 has not yet responded
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Phat
Member
Posts: 9268
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 11 of 31 (790035)
08-24-2016 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by dwise1
08-24-2016 1:20 AM


Spiritual Experience
We are all capable of the same spiritual experiences, though fundamentalist Christians have expressed complete bewilderment at any atheist being able to experience that, just from their own definitions.
I am arguing with jar in another thread on whether a dramatic transformation is needed to experience spirituality. Your input helps me here...
riggamortis writes:

The feeling I got when my wife wanted to give up during child birth and I encouraged her over the line, I can only describe as spiritual.


Dwise1 writes:

I don't know that I could have described that as spiritual. All my concentration was on my wife's well-being.


Perhaps by focusing on others rather than ourselves is evidence of a transformation of sorts. Of course I've never been married...

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by dwise1, posted 08-24-2016 1:20 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 110
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 12 of 31 (790038)
08-24-2016 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Stile
08-23-2016 10:53 AM


Hi Stile, thanks for making me think!
I would say that social interaction, unity and feeling a part of something bigger are *A* source of human spiritual experience.
If you can prove to me that they are the *ONLY* ones... then I'll change my mind

Of course! I did not mean they are the only ones, I was just attempting to show that the religious spiritual experience is just regular HSE(human spiritual experience), in a religious setting. Sex etc, were only intended as my examples, not the definitive guide. I could have been clearer on that. I also have no problem with people deriving their HSE from religion. Religious traditions were surely invented as a means to express our spirituality and with language as their only means of transmission, they evolved with us. Writing changed the game, allowing power and authority to usurp spirituality.

However, I would say that there's at least someone out there that actually receives great, genuine human spiritual experiences from following dogma. A true soldier who finds great comfort in following orders and "knowing" that those orders are always good and perfect even if they don't understand them.

Everyone here is aware of epigenetics I'm sure. Do you see a distinction between someone conditioned to have particular HSEs and someone seeking and fulfilling their own HSE?
My problem with religion, capitalism and consumerism is how they affect our children. We promote irrational beliefs and wonder why people are capable of suicide/abortion clinic bombings. Capitalism promotes and rewards selfishness, greed and the exploitation of others, and we wonder why large companies are assholes. Consumerism wastefully depletes our resources. We have a class society built on possessions and wonder why people are possessive in relationships.

The problem here is that you're doing the same thing.

Pushy, overbearing religious-people will say that they have it right, and you're doing it wrong.
By definitively saying "gods cause division..." you're being pushy and overbearing and saying you have it right and others are doing it wrong.

I concede that I may come across as arrogant or self righteous and advice on how to phrase things differently will always be welcomed.
It almost sounds like you think I want religion abolished or something. I'm not asking people to abandon their beliefs, but gods *do* cause division. We should acknowledge that, rather than ignoring it, or feeding it.

Collectively? No, me neither. I don't think it logically works with the word "purpose."
"Purpose" is subjective, therefore, it's logically individually-related... therefore, there can't possibly be some "grand purpose" that *EVERYONE* agrees with, perfectly. It's just not the way humans work.

I think you may be looking at it as a false dichotomy, why can't everyone have their own 'purpose' but we collectively set and agree on a 'goal' for humanity? I think humans have enough in common to agree on a basic set of goals. If we can set aside the irrational for a moment our chances increase!

My self-imposed purpose is to make life as comfortable/fun/good as possible for my family and friends I care about most.

That's a great personal goal, I doubt many people would disagree with some from of that statement as at least one of their life goals. By extrapolating agreeable personal goals to humanity goals, we might be able to agree on a few things! Not EVERYONE but keep in mind that we're not turning people into slaves for the humanity goal, no one loses the right to their own goals. Our current infinite growth goal is certain to end in catastrophe, however, so sitting back saying 'well I've got lots of freedom and stuff' is like humanity is the frog in the slowly heated water. Fuck that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Stile, posted 08-23-2016 10:53 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Stile, posted 08-24-2016 11:06 AM Riggamortis has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2851
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 13 of 31 (790040)
08-24-2016 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Riggamortis
08-24-2016 9:53 AM


Ha ha, no worries Riggamortis.

Don't worry about me, I usually end up wording things in a more heavy-handed way than I intend as well.
The points I raised were mostly raised just to make sure they weren't being ignored. Not trying to imply that you are, indeed, ignoring them.

Do you see a distinction between someone conditioned to have particular HSEs and someone seeking and fulfilling their own HSE?

Yes, of course.
And, in a general sense, I'm much more on the side of allowing everyone to seek and fulfill their own HSEs.

Just wanted to point out that if you "condition" enough people... you're bound to run into one who's "own HSE" was wanting to be conditioned anyway...

But I'm not a fan of conditioning people in the first place

I think you may be looking at it as a false dichotomy

I think I was just thinking of a slightly different context for the word 'purpose' than you intended. And then I caused some confusion.

why can't everyone have their own 'purpose' but we collectively set and agree on a 'goal' for humanity?

Sounds good to me.

Our current infinite growth goal is certain to end in catastrophe, however, so sitting back saying 'well I've got lots of freedom and stuff' is like humanity is the frog in the slowly heated water. Fuck that.

Fully agreed.
My current opinion on the matter is to deal with the issue instead of reducing the problem.

Problem: We're running out of recourses within our environment.
Suggested solution: Expand our environment so we can get more resources from elsewhere (space).

My issue with that is the problem still exists... waste and excess use of resources. We're just getting more resources in order to keep up our levels of waste and excess.

I'm on the side of mitigating ourselves first. Let's first learn how to control ourselves so we're not expanding at an unreasonable rate. I've never understood the desire to "always grow." Businesses... populations... seems like almost everyone thinks "growing is better" (the greed and all that you're mentioning). But why? What's wrong with reaching a point of comfort and then focusing on sustaining instead of growth?

Once we're able to use resources wisely and reduce our wastefulness... then I'm on board with controlled expansion. I'm fully behind things like eugenics and population control and things like that. Of course, there's a right way and a wrong way to do just about everything. And I'm certainly not saying that it's easier to do than going to space


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 Message 12 by Riggamortis, posted 08-24-2016 9:53 AM Riggamortis has responded

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 Message 23 by Riggamortis, posted 08-25-2016 9:10 PM Stile has not yet responded

    
Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 110
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 14 of 31 (790074)
08-24-2016 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by dwise1
08-24-2016 1:20 AM


Childbirth
I was in the delivery room with my wife all the way. And all the way I was always concentrated on her and on her needs. They practically had to drag me away in order to pay any attention to my new, my first son.

Were there complications? Is that why the mother and baby were separated, or is that just how it was done? In any case they don't seperate them anymore, short of necessity.

After an hours of feeling helpless as my wife endured clearly the most intense pain imaginable, she looked at me and said she couldn't do it anymore. I looked down and the head was already out, I looked at her, squeezed her hand, told her she could do it, took a deep breath and 'pushed' with her. That was all she needed, and at the same time, I felt less helpless, like I had contributed, however little.

A minute later, my son was laid across my wife's bare chest, their first bonding experience. He hardly cried at all, my wife and I just sat watching him take his first breaths and gaze around, taking everything in. You could hardly tell my wife had been in so much pain just minutes earlier. All her pain, my sense of helplessness, washed away in an instant. Hands down the most amazing moment of my life thus far. Fundies be damned!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by dwise1, posted 08-24-2016 1:20 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 08-25-2016 5:36 AM Riggamortis has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 23990
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 15 of 31 (790082)
08-25-2016 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Riggamortis
08-24-2016 9:55 PM


Re: Childbirth
...my wife and I just sat watching him take his first breaths and gaze around, taking everything in. You could hardly tell my wife had been in so much pain just minutes earlier. All her pain, my sense of helplessness, washed away in an instant. Hands down the most amazing moment of my life thus far. Fundies be damned!

I remember the birth of my daughter in very similar terms, particularly her looking right into my face and then turning her head to look up at her father who was standing beside us. A magical moment.

But why compare it to any other magical moment? Discovering God was for me a very big moment indeed after years of not believing. Staggering, breath-taking.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Riggamortis, posted 08-24-2016 9:55 PM Riggamortis has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Riggamortis, posted 08-25-2016 5:45 AM Faith has responded

    
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