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Author Topic:   The Church And Sexual Expression
Phat
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1 of 34 (793795)
11-04-2016 10:15 AM


There has been an ages old debate among people who call themselves Christian regarding the normalcy of same gender attraction and what it means for the church today. Recently I saw a video by a man whom resonated with my inner spirit.

https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/canyoubeborngay?source=f...

This Pastor emphasizes the need for the church to recognize the unique fit of each type of individual in society and in life.

His basic belief is that there are ways for homosexuals to express themselves in the church and in society at large that Christianity has rejected, repressed, and villified.

Check out the video and give me your comments.

Faith & Belief, or perhaps social issues.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Tangle, posted 11-06-2016 7:37 AM Phat has responded

  
Admin
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Message 2 of 34 (793797)
11-06-2016 6:43 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the The Church And Sexual Expression thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4527
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 3 of 34 (793800)
11-06-2016 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
11-04-2016 10:15 AM


Phat writes:

His basic belief is that there are ways for homosexuals to express themselves in the church and in society at large that Christianity has rejected, repressed, and villified.

Why on earth you think anyone needs to watch a video to know that that's obviously true is beyond me. It just highlights how fucked up religious 'thinking' is.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 11-04-2016 10:15 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 11-06-2016 9:15 AM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28667
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 4 of 34 (793803)
11-06-2016 7:57 AM


A church is free to make any stupid rules it wants.
Churches are free to make any stupid rules for their members that they want, and that the members will accept.

What churches and religions are NOT free to do is try to impose their rules on non-members.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 5 of 34 (793807)
11-06-2016 9:05 AM


Love and Sex
First of all, neither one of you has gotten the basic point of the video.

  • Love and sex are not the same thing. Our society has blown this one big time.

    There is no need to express attraction through sexual expression and, even if it can be labeled as sexual, the form of the expression can involve intimacy that need not culminate in sexual release. There is no biological need to do so. A hug can carry far more emotional weight. Women have taught us this for years. Sometimes they just want to be held and cuddled---as does everyone, essentially.

    My point is not to villify what our society terms as gay. The legal and social freedoms of human individuals has now extended to include all sexual preferences, and I'm not arguing against the legal rights.

    What I am suggesting is what the Pastor has suggested in this video--that there is a different role for same gender attraction than merely being encouraged to biologically "love" your spouse...and if a spouse of the same gender is the only solution.

    It is my contention that same gender attraction can be used as a tool for a deeper love---such as Jesus has and had, that can be used to nurture the church as a group---and that traditional religion has been shooting itself in the foot for not recognizing the role that can be played by such individuals.

    What churches and religions are NOT free to do is try to impose their rules on non-members.
    And no one has suggested this.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    Replies to this message:
     Message 6 by jar, posted 11-06-2016 9:08 AM Phat has responded
     Message 28 by Rrhain, posted 11-07-2016 8:54 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
  • jar
    Member
    Posts: 28667
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    (1)
    Message 6 of 34 (793808)
    11-06-2016 9:08 AM
    Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
    11-06-2016 9:05 AM


    Re: Love and Sex
    Religions and churches have every right to shoot themselves in the foot although I will admit that is one bizarre example of a foot fetish.

    AbE: Since determining who or what makes someone a spouse is a secular contractual issue it really is irrelevant what any church or religion thinks on the matter.

    Edited by jar, : see AbE:


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by Phat, posted 11-06-2016 9:05 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 8 by Phat, posted 11-06-2016 9:19 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9283
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 7 of 34 (793809)
    11-06-2016 9:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 3 by Tangle
    11-06-2016 7:37 AM


    Its The Purpose
    Why on earth you think anyone needs to watch a video to know that that's obviously true is beyond me. It just highlights how fucked up religious 'thinking' is.
    Because society has not grown up enough to understand the difference between attraction, the purpose of the attraction, and the ways that the attraction can be expressed.

    Perhaps you can make an argument that it is not up to the church to define purpose and that the individual can and should be free to define it for themseves...but my argument is that society does not encourage people to get deeper with their emotions. Our motto in society is simply If it feels good, do it. Why do you think we have so many divorces?

    It is because heterosexuals are taught that man is an animal and in nature, a male can and does often have several different partners.

    Again, my basic argument is that sexual expression and compatibility should be treated deeper than is done.

    My critics will only point out that churches have no right to determine what should even means.

    My counterargument is that society needs to challenge itself to get deeper than mere biological urges and that there is a unique purpose for such urges.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by Tangle, posted 11-06-2016 7:37 AM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 10 by Tangle, posted 11-06-2016 9:41 AM Phat has responded
     Message 11 by ringo, posted 11-06-2016 1:33 PM Phat has responded
     Message 15 by NoNukes, posted 11-06-2016 10:58 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9283
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 8 of 34 (793810)
    11-06-2016 9:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 6 by jar
    11-06-2016 9:08 AM


    Re: Love and Sex
    jar writes:

    Since determining who or what makes someone a spouse is a secular contractual issue it really is irrelevant what any church or religion thinks on the matter.

    Agreed in that it is a secular issue, but one could argue that everything is a secular issue. My challenge is for the club to take a stand that potential members might think about.

    Lets ask this: What is the purpose for a gay union?

    Does your club have any guidelines?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by jar, posted 11-06-2016 9:08 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 9 by jar, posted 11-06-2016 9:34 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 28667
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 9 of 34 (793811)
    11-06-2016 9:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
    11-06-2016 9:19 AM


    Re: Love and Sex
    Same sex marriage is legal in the US.

    Churches can only sanctify or bless marriages, they have no authority beyond what is delegated by the State to perform marriages and then only after the State has first sanctioned the marriage.

    I have no idea what a gay union is. Is it like the IDP/HHW? Is there a membership charge.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by Phat, posted 11-06-2016 9:19 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 4527
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 10 of 34 (793814)
    11-06-2016 9:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
    11-06-2016 9:15 AM


    Re: Its The Purpose
    quote:
    Because society has not grown up enough to understand the difference between attraction, the purpose of the attraction, and the ways that the attraction can be expressed.

    Says who? Everyone on the planet knows and understands this.

    quote:
    Perhaps you can make an argument that it is not up to the church to define purpose and that the individual can and should be free to define it for themseves

    You can bet your arse I can

    quote:
    ..but my argument is that society does not encourage people to get deeper with their emotions. Our motto in society is simply If it feels good, do it. Why do you think we have so many divorces?

    I hope you're speaking for yourself here - it's not something I recognise. We have so many divorces because people change over time and they now can.

    quote:
    It is because heterosexuals are taught that man is an animal and in nature, a male can and does often have several different partners.

    Phat, you do a lot of twaddle at times...

    quote:
    My critics will only point out that churches have no right to determine what should even means.

    Yeh.

    quote:
    My counterargument is that society needs to challenge itself to get deeper than mere biological urges and that there is a unique purpose for such urges.

    I have no idea what you're talking about. You seem to be involved in some sort of personal revelation.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by Phat, posted 11-06-2016 9:15 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 12 by Phat, posted 11-06-2016 2:59 PM Tangle has responded
     Message 17 by Phat, posted 11-07-2016 7:19 AM Tangle has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 12906
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.6


    (1)
    Message 11 of 34 (793857)
    11-06-2016 1:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
    11-06-2016 9:15 AM


    Re: Its The Purpose
    Phat writes:

    ...but my argument is that society does not encourage people to get deeper with their emotions.


    I think you have that backwards. Our society does encourage a lot of voodoo nonsense about commitment and what a "committed relationship" should be. The problem isn't that there isn't enough of that; the problem is that it isn't realistic.

    The biological urges are real. The "deeper meaning" that people "should" have often is not.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by Phat, posted 11-06-2016 9:15 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 13 by Phat, posted 11-06-2016 3:03 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9283
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 12 of 34 (793876)
    11-06-2016 2:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 10 by Tangle
    11-06-2016 9:41 AM


    Re: Its The Purpose
    Everyone on the planet knows and understands this.
    I don't think so. If everyone on the planet knew the meaning of love and of relationships and understood it fully, there would be no wars.

    Of course where you and I differ and will argue is that you think that people are born with no character defects and what we do and how we behave is essentially normal....whereas I believe that people are not born without flaws and that we are expected to work them out.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 10 by Tangle, posted 11-06-2016 9:41 AM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 14 by Tangle, posted 11-06-2016 3:16 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9283
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 13 of 34 (793877)
    11-06-2016 3:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
    11-06-2016 1:33 PM


    Re: Its The Purpose
    Our society does encourage a lot of voodoo nonsense about commitment and what a "committed relationship" should be. The problem isn't that there isn't enough of that; the problem is that it isn't realistic.
    Are you suggesting that humans should not strive for deeper insight? That the way we are is the way we will be?

    No wonder you dont want any sort of authority in your life apart from your own inner awareness.

    My argument is that you and all of us collectively---are not fully healthy just the way we are.

    To support my argument I present the growing number of addictions,compulsions,licentious liaisons and overall sensuality without responsibility that the human animal is plagued with.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by ringo, posted 11-06-2016 1:33 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 24 by ringo, posted 11-07-2016 10:52 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 4527
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 14 of 34 (793879)
    11-06-2016 3:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
    11-06-2016 2:59 PM


    Re: Its The Purpose
    quote:
    I don't think so. If everyone on the planet knew the meaning of love and of relationships and understood it fully, there would be no wars.

    That is one enormous non-sequiter.

    quote:
    Of course where you and I differ and will argue is that you think that people are born with no character defects and what we do and how we behave is essentially normal....whereas I believe that people are not born without flaws and that we are expected to work them out.

    It's probably best to stick to what you believe. Tell me, what flaws are newborn babies born with?


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by Phat, posted 11-06-2016 2:59 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 19 by jar, posted 11-07-2016 7:56 AM Tangle has responded

      
    NoNukes
    Member
    Posts: 9429
    From: Central NC USA
    Joined: 08-13-2010
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 15 of 34 (793889)
    11-06-2016 10:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
    11-06-2016 9:15 AM


    Re: Its The Purpose
    Because society has not grown up enough to understand the difference between attraction, the purpose of the attraction, and the ways that the attraction can be expressed.

    Or perhaps there exist more than one type of attraction. I feel no 'gender attraction' to males that would be confused in anyway with a desire to have sex with them. I doubt that such confusion is the least bit true. I also doubt that folks with homosexual attractions are mistaking their feelings for just wanting to play a checkers or football with each other.

    My counterargument is that society needs to challenge itself to get deeper than mere biological urges and that there is a unique purpose for such urges

    Thanks for sharing. Do you have biological urges towards men that you really want to do some other type of bonding with? I would consider such a thing very unusual.


    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

    Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by Phat, posted 11-06-2016 9:15 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

        
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