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Author Topic:   Laws happened by accident ? and did Laws evolve ?
Davidjay
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Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
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Message 1 of 114 (804799)
04-12-2017 11:17 AM


Lets discuss and consider whether or not the laws of the Universe, laws of Nature, Laws of Physics, just happened, and were always present magically somehow someway, starting from their so called INNATE PROPERTIES in the Beginning. Lets discuss if explosions and Big Bangs gave them these properties and whether the LAWS they obey were just magically there by an unseen force called Evolution (or via God). Or whether these laws ever changed in time as so called evolving conditions made the magic of selection, make the envirorment choose the right laws. Did laws ever evolve or are they a constant ?

Do evolutionists only apply their magic formula of mutations on living organisms that are already alive, or does it apply to all realms, whether animate or inanimate. Has Physics evolved, Have the LAWS evolved and are they now still evolving is the many questions to answer HERE.

Creationists are welcome to answer as well.

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 1:43 AM Davidjay has responded

    
Davidjay
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Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2 of 114 (804800)
04-13-2017 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Davidjay
04-12-2017 11:17 AM


I have presented my topic, and within it are numerous questions all about the laws or physics of the Universe. These can be the parameters of the discussions........ as I dont see that anyone else or any other topic has covered this important area, of whether laws evolved or whether they were created.

Can we start this topic of discussion and/or can you transfer this science topic to the forum of your choosing, so we may begin.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Davidjay, posted 04-12-2017 11:17 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 9:43 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Admin
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Message 3 of 114 (804802)
04-13-2017 9:02 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Laws happened by accident ? and did Laws evolve ? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Davidjay
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Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 4 of 114 (804809)
04-13-2017 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Davidjay
04-13-2017 1:43 AM


Debate is two sided rather than unilateral proofs
First my or the creationist logic.

The Lord or if you like the Creator created all laws at once in one fell unified swoop. There was no evolution of laws with the so called evolution of life, or so called evolution of selection via conditions.

So come on evolutionist, your turn.

When did the laws of the Universe come into existence or were they magically there from the Beginning. Have any of them changed or been created since the beginning or your BIG EXPLOSIVE BANG of CREATION.

If you have no opinion or theory, then creationism wins by your default. So do step forward and be brave enough to enter the debate......


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 1:43 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 04-13-2017 9:51 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
jar
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From: Texas!!
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Message 5 of 114 (804810)
04-13-2017 9:49 AM


Is it science
First, is there any evidence there is some Creator or Lord?

AbE: Your hypothesis is "The Lord or if you like the Creator created all laws at once in one fell unified swoop."

We must first look to see if your hypothesis can be supported in any way.

Edited by jar, : see AbE


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

  
Tangle
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From: UK
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Message 6 of 114 (804811)
04-13-2017 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Davidjay
04-13-2017 9:43 AM


Re: Debate is two sided rather than unilateral proofs
Davidjay writes:

If you have no opinion or theory, then creationism wins by your default

Um, no.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 9:43 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Percy
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Posts: 15646
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
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Message 7 of 114 (804812)
04-13-2017 9:53 AM


The observational evidence indicates that the laws of the universe have been in place unchanged since the Big Bang. I know there has been speculation that the fine structure constant has changed slightly over time, but that hasn't yet been confirmed.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 10:09 AM Percy has responded
 Message 71 by Dredge, posted 04-21-2017 10:31 PM Percy has responded

    
Davidjay
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Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 8 of 114 (804814)
04-13-2017 9:58 AM


I repeat, true debate is two sided
Darn evolutionists just cant read and cant debate.

Jar, learn to follow the topic and parameters.

"First, is there any evidence there is some Creator or Lord?"

NO, you have the guts and courage to defend your position, so STATE IT.

Have some courage, have some integrity, learn how to debate.

No wonder I avoid your ******** comments. So lets hear from a honest evolutionists who has some answers.

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-13-2017 11:00 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Davidjay
Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 9 of 114 (804816)
04-13-2017 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Percy
04-13-2017 9:53 AM


Verry Good Percy, no changes in laws since creation
Thanks Percy for standing up for evolutionary theory.

For you rightly say that in your theory ... ""The observational evidence indicates that the laws of the universe have been in place unchanged since the Big Bang. I know there has been speculation that the fine structure constant has changed slightly over time, but that hasn't yet been confirmed.

--Percy ""

Other evolutionists can differ with you if they please, but lets analyse your statement, as I would say and agree with you that evolution says, all laws were there from CREATION. Your creation in your theory is the Big Explosive Bang, mine is the Creative Week of the Lord of Lords.

Hence we are very very close in our science history, just a semantic difference. You would suggest that it is all by random luck and chance that this BIG EXPLOSION created life (that supposed evolved in time into different species and then more different species etc etc). Why because throughout this discussion board, evolutionists do confirm that evolution is based on sheer lucky mutations. Right.

So Percy, I would assume you are saying evolution does not change laws nor did it ever create laws.. Is that RIGHT ?

(I love the FINE STRUCTURE CONSTANT, that again proves creation, but that can be for another THREAD..WE shall stick to the topic and HEREIN stay on topic)

Thanks for your honesty, and POST

David


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Percy, posted 04-13-2017 9:53 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Percy, posted 04-13-2017 10:20 AM Davidjay has responded
 Message 11 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-13-2017 10:58 AM Davidjay has responded

    
Percy
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Posts: 15646
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 10 of 114 (804819)
04-13-2017 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Davidjay
04-13-2017 10:09 AM


Re: Verry Good Percy, no changes in laws since creation
Davidjay writes:

Other evolutionists can differ with you if they please, but lets analyse your statement, as I would say and agree with you that evolution says, all laws were there from CREATION.

Evolution is a theory of biology, not physics, and has no comment on the Big Bang or the origin of the laws of the universe.

You would suggest that it is all by random luck and chance...

We don't know the degree of determinism regarding the Big Bang.

...that this BIG EXPLOSION created life...

The Big Bang occurred billions of years before the origin of life. These events are not directly related.

Why because throughout this discussion board, evolutionists do confirm that evolution is based on sheer lucky mutations. Right.

That would be incorrect. Mutations are random, selection is not.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 10:09 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 11:26 AM Percy has responded

    
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15946
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 11 of 114 (804828)
04-13-2017 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Davidjay
04-13-2017 10:09 AM


Re: Verry Good Percy, no changes in laws since creation
Also the Big Bang was not an explosion. So you're pretty much wrong about everything.

But I guess you'll be used to that by now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 10:09 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 11:31 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15946
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 12 of 114 (804829)
04-13-2017 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Davidjay
04-13-2017 9:58 AM


Re: I repeat, true debate is two sided
Have some courage, have some integrity, learn how to debate.

You're adorable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 9:58 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
Davidjay
Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 13 of 114 (804830)
04-13-2017 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Percy
04-13-2017 10:20 AM


Re: Verry Good Percy,
Percy says or evolutionists say ....Evolution is a theory of biology, not physics, and has no comment on the Big Bang or the origin of the laws of the universe. " So according to Percy evolutionists can have no opinion as they say, there is no connection between evolution or the origins of life with the creation of elements and laws at the start of Creation with the Big Bang Explosion. Shucks there goes the debate according to Percy, but at least he is being rational and stating the evolution theory, that does state that it has no answers to the creation of life. Their theory is that a Big Bang Explosion caused the laws of the Universe, and then their theory states that by chance or luck thereafter, maybe an eon or two chemicals just magically created life. Fair enough summation from an evolutionary standpoint. Many Thanks Percy..... much appreciated again for your honesty. It makes no sense, but good on ya for presenting the evolutionary theory.

"We don't know the degree of determinism regarding the Big Bang." I agree evolutionists do not know and have no answer for amazing laws and chemicals that just so called happened to be created with a magic Big Bang Explosion. AGREED

But I like Percy's method of posting, sweet clear and distinct, or should we say EXACT.... it may be exactly wrong but its at least a good summation and honest summation of evolutionary theory.
Again Thanks....

But Herein in his directness, Percy says to my reply, that evolution is by lucky mutations

"That would be incorrect. Mutations are random, selection is not."

So again Percy admits that evolution is sheerly by luck and chance. We have CONFIRMATION AGAIN. But following Percy states that selection is not by lucky chance, it is the deciding factor or words to that effect, or that it is the intelligence that selects.

Well first, this assumes there is such a thing as a magical lucky mutation or roll of the dice that actually benefits an organism. Secondly, if this magically produced mutation actually works then it proves that selection is not at random.

IE If it exists, then selection must have selected it. Sorry that makes no sense, selection is an intelligent selecting device. Conditions and or envirorment do not select from all the mutations that misread the previous DNA code and make a determination of who lives and who dies.

If something exists does not make selection, a divine force or shall we say 'Not at random like mutations are proven to be.

TWO randoms do not make evolutionary design or evolutionary sense or evolutionary change. The envirorment or life itself is not a magic selector.

To exist, intelligence has to come from an intelligent non random source.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Percy, posted 04-13-2017 10:20 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Percy, posted 04-13-2017 11:52 AM Davidjay has responded
 Message 24 by NoNukes, posted 04-13-2017 12:43 PM Davidjay has not yet responded
 Message 27 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-13-2017 1:09 PM Davidjay has responded

    
Davidjay
Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 14 of 114 (804831)
04-13-2017 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dr Adequate
04-13-2017 10:58 AM


Re: Inadequate Response Adequate
Do explain adequately, Dr. Adequate how the Big Bang explosion was directed in its explosion... or was not an explosion.

Was it a nice quiet bang, was it an organized focused designed bang by Mother Nature in outer space ?

I am very interested in your statement that the Big Bang was not an explosion.

Do explain yourself adequately.

And do see if you can get other evolutionists to agree with you.

Ask Percy, I would think he would disagree with you.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-13-2017 10:58 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-13-2017 11:34 AM Davidjay has not yet responded
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 04-13-2017 11:58 AM Davidjay has responded
 Message 25 by JonF, posted 04-13-2017 12:50 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Davidjay
Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 15 of 114 (804832)
04-13-2017 11:34 AM


Percy, there were no laws before the Big Bang ?
According to you Percy, the Big Bang created the laws of the Universe.

Then logically, there were no laws before the Big Bang. Right or Wrong.

If wrong, and if in your opinion there were laws before the Big Bang, and then the Big Bang made some more laws, then new laws would have been created afterwards.... and you could state that laws evolved in your theory.

What say ye, or what theorize ye ?

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Percy, posted 04-13-2017 12:05 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
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