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Author Topic:   Winning and Losing in the Debates
RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
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(2)
Message 1 of 27 (808713)
05-12-2017 10:52 AM


Curiously, I have been giving the issue of Winning and Losing in the Debates some thoughts recently.

A recent post by edge on the The TRVE history of the Flood... thread impels me to start a thread on it

It seems to me that when someone acknowledges that they were wrong, that we have a winner -- not the person who corrected them, but the person who acknowledges their error wins.

Losers are those who never admit nor recognize their errors.

Most of us don't keep score ... or need to.

Thoughts?

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
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(2)
Message 2 of 27 (808715)
05-12-2017 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
05-12-2017 10:52 AM


It seems to me that when someone acknowledges that they were wrong, that we have a winner -- not the person who corrected them, but the person who acknowledges their error wins.

And science wins when, through gathering, evaluation, and debate over evidence, we build increasingly accurate explanations of natural phenomena.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


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PaulK
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(1)
Message 3 of 27 (808731)
05-12-2017 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
05-12-2017 10:52 AM


My observation is that the people who boast loudest about winning are the biggest losers around.
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Davidjay
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Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 4 of 27 (808732)
05-12-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by PaulK
05-12-2017 11:34 AM


My observation is that debate, a real debate has a competitive intellectual edge to it, because reason and logic and math and science do have discerning qualities to them when applied to any question.

Real science can be proven and tested

SEE Science is a REVEALED TRUTH thread

Real science, and its discerning properties and discerning means should be taught to our students rather than indocrinating them with theories without meaning or without backing. Give them the tools for discernment and they can be winners as individuals, unswayed by the majority so to their own selves they can be TRUE.

Most groupie, majority opininated debaters cower into their supposed opinion just because they out number the minority or a single poster. They are subjective in almost all cases and refuse to discuss anything or say anything. They are whoosies and basically cowards in most cases.

A real debate gets readers or listeners into thinking about the posts and principles mentioned. Forget the posters they seldom change their minds, especially under the duress of the majority who intimidate them on line and in real life and in real schools.

Debate needs to be open and honest, and two sided. and then it is valuable. Then there is a winner and losers as truth always has a side and is backed by principles and laws and real life.

Amen ? Amen !


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


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Phat
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Posts: 9435
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 5 of 27 (808766)
05-12-2017 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Coyote
05-12-2017 10:58 AM


In Defense Of Faith & Belief
Coyote writes:

And science wins when, through gathering, evaluation, and debate over evidence, we build increasingly accurate explanations of natural phenomena.

Though it is true that evidence usually settles a case, the absence of evidence does NOT automatically equate to evidence of Absence.(No God)

I could care less what Ayn Rand thinks, as well.

There is no battle between science and evidence over Faith and dogma.

It comes down to our individual character and overall critical thought display.

jar represents faith and belief well, though his logic, reason, and reality tend to trash organized religious concepts that are accepted by the mainstream.

For the science crowd, however, he scores a touchdown quite often.

Many believers offer little help to the Faith & Belief side to appear intelligent and convincing. I fear that more harm is done through fundamentalist literalist thinking than it helps us.

I need work also, that much I will admit. It takes some time to put together a well-expressed argument.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18669
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(3)
Message 6 of 27 (808767)
05-12-2017 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
05-12-2017 5:37 PM


Re: In Defense Of Faith & Belief
Though it is true that evidence usually settles a case, the absence of evidence does NOT automatically equate to evidence of Absence.(No God)

Agreed, a lack of evidence does not invalidate an hypotheses, however one must also remain skeptical when there is an absence of validating evidence.

The rational conclusion is that we don't know and should wait for evidence.

What does enter the fray in this situation is personal experience -- if I see something in the woods that nobody else has seen or sees, my personal experience leaves me with a greater inclination to believe what I experienced than not.

It comes down to our individual character and overall critical thought display.

I need work also, that much I will admit. It takes some time to put together a well-expressed argument.

You are doing well, your trials with recovery from your gambling addiction are giving you greater strength to continue, and I see personal growth occurring as well. I think you will win this battle.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11446
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 7 of 27 (808920)
05-14-2017 10:02 PM


I always win
If I'm right, I win.

If I'm wrong, and I know that because you taught me something, then I also win.

I only really loose when I put in the time/effort and then you don't reply.

Ya know, that may be where trolling stems from. Like, I'd rather you do reply. And I'd also like to hear your opinion on the matters. So, eliciting a reply is in my interest. Perhaps a little trolling help spur the conversation along


  
NoNukes
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Posts: 9658
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 8 of 27 (808923)
05-14-2017 11:11 PM


I'm not sure what winning actually means in the context of EvC. Yes it is the case that one side or the other does a better job of making its points than the other. But given that there are no referees, and that the alternatives seem to be self-declaration and peer voting. I don't think winning is really the point.

I think Cats Eye makes an excellent point. Debates that educate are the best debates. Everybody wins.

I am sure of is that a series of posts where one or both sides do not acknowledge or address the arguments of others in a serious fashion cannot have a winner. Such an exchange is not a debate at all.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


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Davidjay
Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 9 of 27 (808958)
05-15-2017 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by NoNukes
05-14-2017 11:11 PM


Agreed, both sides should answer questions in a real debate.

If one topic is promoted on a subject, the other side of the topic should also be promoted and discussed or debated.

And truly the best threads are RESEARCH threads, where all research a topic and try to forward their insights... such as the Research THREAD (LIGHT SPEED BY DESIGN) I proposed and started and improved on with two new additions as we went along. It helped me further the concept from my standpoint.

In other words even evolutionists can present their new theory to evolutionists and creationists and see if it makes sense. If there are no objective scientific differences, then its possible the theory is more than a theory.


.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.

.


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ringo
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Posts: 13213
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 10 of 27 (808999)
05-15-2017 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Davidjay
05-15-2017 8:48 AM


Davidjay writes:

Agreed, both sides should answer questions in a real debate.


So go back to the forty topics in which you have unanswered posts and start answering.

You're wasting your time up in the stands declaring victory. You need to come down on the field and play.


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Davidjay
Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 11 of 27 (809714)
05-20-2017 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
05-15-2017 12:18 PM


I hate losers because they are such whimps and can not be trusted when the going gets tough, maybe its ny background as a athlete or mountain man, then again surely it stems from being a Christian. Why because Jesus was not a whimp and a whoosie, He had guts and courage to fight the dam religionists and politicians, and mobs.

I love winning and being on the side of truth and logic and science, and justice. I believe in fair play and rules, not intimidation by mobs and congregations and preachers. I hate forced indocrination whether in schools or in the pews.

I like and love freedom and CHOICE.

Its all about choice and equality

http://www.davidjayjordan.com/...ment-EqualityandChoice.html


Evolutionists are brainless whoosies, gutless and cowards.
They are not scientists, but religionists that choose to deny facts and truths of science. Intelligence and design always defeats their lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is a losers doctrine, simply because they are either lazy or dishonest.

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ringo
Member
Posts: 13213
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 12 of 27 (809715)
05-20-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Davidjay
05-20-2017 12:00 PM


Davidjay writes:

I hate losers....


Your self-loathing is evident.
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Davidjay
Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 13 of 27 (809721)
05-20-2017 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by ringo
05-20-2017 12:02 PM


Ringo, to thine own self be true... is the principle. Be an individual, Ringo, quite being swayed by majority unthinking intimidation into compliance. Be an individual, and then you can love yourself and live with yourself.

*********************

Faceless Hordes

Jesus calls His people by NAME even giving them a NEW NAME individually and not as a group of groupies. He knows
them personally and intimately and each of them is an individual and not some clone of some idealized spiritualized molded
original.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name,
which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give
to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth
saving he that receiveth it.

The LORD loves originality and individual choice through his God-given freedoms and bounds, which's why He has chosen
his people from ALL NATIONS on the face of the Earth. He won't select one nation or one tribe, or one religious group. The
Lord's called out ONES are unique, one of a kind individuals. They each have a recognizable face here and now and will have
the same enhanced features into eternity. We are not faceless and nameless robots, without emotion and without opinions.

We are real people, but the Devil's horde are not so. They literally become nameless and faceless in Hell, even without
genitals. (Book of Adam and Book of Enoch) For even the Devil, himself, eventually becomes just one of the non-thinking
horde, or 'goyums' as they say of him, "Is this the man that made the Earth to tremble, and did shake kingdoms." As a carcass
trodden under foot in the stones of the pit (See Hollow Earth), the Devil will be humbled into obscurity, as will all the proud.

Some of the wicked may eventually learn their lesson and have some sort of restitution because the mercy of the Lord is
everlasting, whereas the Devil has absolutely no chance before his infinite destruction. He becomes a whimp, a nameless,
faceless, ball-less has-been non-entity. For most likely even at the Great White Throne Judgment because people didn't
recognize the LAMB (Jesus) personally and individually they will probably be grouped into herds of goats.

The Lord surely won't judge them separately, taking up His precious time with those that never cared to think, pray,
discern, or work for others. Surely they will be grouped into their groupie categories and they will come before their Creator
as a group by number or group name to be judged accordingly en mass. Such would be a true and righteous way of judging
them according to their own belief or lack of belief. Whereas, we that aspire to love the LORD our Bridegroom with all our
heart, soul, strength, and MIND, pray we become part of His BRIDE. For only then are we called by our name and His
NEW NAME, and we are called to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb

We have a face and He recognizes our Name because Jesus knows us and never loses any of 'His Sheep'.

In My Opinion and according to scriptures

Jordan Fisherman (Jay)


Evolutionists are brainless whoosies, gutless and cowards.
They are not scientists, but religionists that choose to deny facts and truths of science. Intelligence and design always defeats their lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is a losers doctrine, simply because they are either lazy or dishonest.

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ringo
Member
Posts: 13213
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(4)
Message 14 of 27 (809723)
05-20-2017 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Davidjay
05-20-2017 12:21 PM


Davidjay writes:

Ringo, to thine own self be true... is the principle.


A bad principle. Nobody is easier to deceive than yourself. You may be deceiving yourself or you may just be playing the fool, but you're not deceiving anybody else here.
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2804
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 15 of 27 (810276)
05-26-2017 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
05-12-2017 10:52 AM


So why debate? Why not just simply talk, discuss? Learn?

I remember the academic forensics clubs and societies in high school. Regardless of whichever position you actually took, you learned to take whatever position you were assigned and then to take that position in your arguments. Mind you, that is a very valuable skill to develop in a lawyer.

I remember an anecdote about the lawyer Abraham Lincoln. In the morning, he argued before a judge a particular legal point that he convinced the judge. In the evening of the same day, he argued before the same judge the completely opposite legal point and still convinced the judge. When that judge questioned him about it, he dissembled that he was confused that morning, but he was clear about his reasoning that afternoon.

I vividly remember the very first time that I had ever heard anything about the founder of "intelligent design", lawyer Phillip Johnson. And the only thing I could ever think of thinking was, "What a completely fucking idiot!"

I mean, there he was all about court procedures and court rules for evidence and all I could think of was, just what the fuck are we trying to accomplish here? Just why the fuck is he going on and on about court procedures and rules when in reality we are just trying to conduct a bloody police investigation.

Sorry, but just how the fuck does all this real-life shit go down?

In short, you conduct your police investigation in order to uncover all the facts. Then you use those facts to make your legal case.

Those are two very different paths to take.


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