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Author Topic:   We ain't made of what we thought
Tangle
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Posts: 5065
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 1 of 23 (816232)
08-01-2017 9:12 AM


"What this new mode implies is that up to one-half of the atoms around us—including in the solar system, on Earth and in each one of us—comes not from our own galaxy but from other galaxies, up to one million light years away,"

https://phys.org/news/2017-07-milky.html


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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kjsimons
Member
Posts: 647
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 2 of 23 (816239)
08-01-2017 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
08-01-2017 9:12 AM


So does this make us all partially extraterrestrials ?
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Stile
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Posts: 2964
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 3 of 23 (816240)
08-01-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
08-01-2017 9:12 AM


Tangle writes:

"What this new mode implies is that up to one-half of the atoms around us—including in the solar system, on Earth and in each one of us—comes not from our own galaxy but from other galaxies, up to one million light years away,"

Where does our 'stuff' come from, anyway?

I have 2 thoughts/questions:

1. I was always (uneducated-ly) under the assumption that all atoms/elements we see today were created from previous long-ago star explosions and such? Not like... a few star-generations ago.. but loooooooooong ago.

With atoms/elements being created so long ago, I always thought they were from not-our-galaxy (or at least, not our recognizable galaxy) anyway. Is this 'really big news' in the field?

2. Don't most atoms and stuff have a half-life in the millions-of-years range?
Isn't the earth billions of years old?
Wouldn't that mean ALL atoms and stuff on earth are being created (or re-created?) on earth unless our world is constantly being bombarded with a fresh source of new atoms and stuff from space?
Wouldn't most of any atoms' life be taken up in it's travel-time-to-earth if it came from up to one million light years away?


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NoNukes
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Posts: 9926
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 4 of 23 (816244)
08-01-2017 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by kjsimons
08-01-2017 10:48 AM


So does this make us all partially extraterrestrials ?

Under the old understanding, we were already made up from material formed outside of our solar system. That would be sufficient to make us ET's of some sort.

But apparently, we are also extra-galactic beings made up of materials from beyond even the milky-way. I don't find that to be earth shattering although it does seem to be new. What is surprising is that we have some amount of evidence of such a thing.

Let's note that this evidence is from a mathematical simulation rather than from any ability to distinguish an origin for atoms or any collection of atoms. Interesting as something I might put on a t-shirt, but otherwise just something to contemplate for most of us.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


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NoNukes
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Posts: 9926
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 5 of 23 (816245)
08-01-2017 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Stile
08-01-2017 11:04 AM


2. Don't most atoms and stuff have a half-life in the millions-of-years range?

No. That is not correct. Most stuff that makes up the earth is essentially stable. Materials with shorter half lives are either produced from decay chains from elements with billion year half lives or are the result of induced nuclear reactions.

The influx of new material on earth is close to negligible.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


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Taq
Member
Posts: 7141
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 6 of 23 (816247)
08-01-2017 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Stile
08-01-2017 11:04 AM


Stile writes:

1. I was always (uneducated-ly) under the assumption that all atoms/elements we see today were created from previous long-ago star explosions and such? Not like... a few star-generations ago.. but loooooooooong ago.

The atoms we see today did come from a previous supernova explosion, but half the matter, according to this study, that made up the star which went supernova came from other galaxies.


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RAZD
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Posts: 18970
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(3)
Message 7 of 23 (816277)
08-02-2017 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
08-01-2017 9:12 AM


" ... up to one-half of the atoms around us—including in the solar system, on Earth and in each one of us—comes not from our own galaxy but from other galaxies, up to one million light years away,"

We know that prebiotic molecules are scattered throughout the universe ... and we know that some of those molecules have rained down on earth and that some were brought down to earth by meteors. Perhaps life is the because of the alien connections ...

Panspermic Pre-Biotic Molecules - Life's Building Blocks (Part I)

quote:
From these information sections it seems to me that the building blocks needed for beginning the creation of life were plentiful, not just on Earth but in space in general and from the earliest of times. Probably they have been around since long before even the Earth formed from the cosmic debris left behind by the life and death cycle of previous stars and planets, back to the beginning of time. These "seeds of life" no doubt extend through the far reaches of the universe as well as the depths of time (cue Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young ... "We are star dust ...").


by Joni Mitchell

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2714
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 8 of 23 (816296)
08-02-2017 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
08-01-2017 9:12 AM


1st Law of Thermodynamics
Crikey!
So if a galaxy 100 million light years away has donated some atoms to give rise to our stuff.

It only stand to reason then that somewhere in a galaxy far far away.............(Cue the dramatic receding prologue.)

Our stuff is giving rise to their stuff.

quote:
"Within You Without You"

We were talking about the space between us all
And the people who hide themselves behind a wall of illusion
Never glimpse the truth, then it's far too late, when they pass away
We were talking about the love we all could share
When we find it, to try our best to hold it there with our love
With our love, we could save the world, if they only knew

Try to realise it's all within yourself
No one else can make you change
And to see you're really only very small
And life flows on within you and without you

We were talking about the love that's gone so cold
And the people who gain the world and lose their soul
They don't know, they can't see, are you one of them?

When you've seen beyond yourself then you may find
Peace of mind is waiting there
And the time will come when you see we're all one
And life flows on within you and without you
~The Beatles



"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1578
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 6.0


(2)
Message 9 of 23 (816297)
08-02-2017 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
08-01-2017 9:12 AM


Why stop there?
"What this new mode implies is that up to one-half of the atoms around us—including in the solar system, on Earth and in each one of us—comes not from our own galaxy but from other galaxies, up to one million light years away,"

We can probably say that some (or all?) of the hydrogen in our bodies was formed shortly after the Big Bang.

Why the one million light year boundary?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


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New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 10 of 23 (816308)
08-02-2017 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tanypteryx
08-02-2017 12:43 PM


Re: Why stop there?
"What this new mode implies is that up to one-half of the atoms around us—including in the solar system, on Earth and in each one of us—comes not from our own galaxy but from other galaxies, up to one million light years away,"

We can probably say that some (or all?) of the hydrogen in our bodies was formed shortly after the Big Bang.

Because they weren't a part of another galaxy yet?

Why the one million light year boundary?

When I read the article, I was wondering how far back in time this went, and what that meant for the size of the Universe at that time compared to the size it is now - the galaxy were closer to each other back in the day.

Maybe that boundary has something to do with the expansion, and how far apart they were back in the day, and whether or not we'd expect that growing distance to be something that couldn't be surpassed.

I dunno, that's just me thinking out loud.


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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9926
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 11 of 23 (816353)
08-03-2017 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tanypteryx
08-02-2017 12:43 PM


Re: Why stop there?
Why the one million light year boundary?

Because the majority of the mass of our bodies is from elements heavier than hydrogen, helium, and lithium. For example, pure water is only 11% hydrogen by weight. None of the heavier elements were formed in the big bang. On the other hand oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon are all formed in the cores of stars, but for the most part, those elements are locked up within stars that do not go super kablooey. Only supernovas distribute some of their guts out into the universe at the end of their lives.

For those reasons, it is interesting to talk about where the star dust in our bodies comes from and just how far it may have traveled between the time it was formed and the time it became incorporated into the terrestrial planets forming our particular solar system. You are correct that the hydrogen needs no such explanation, but some of it too is released from the dying stars and supernova.

Edited by NoNukes, : fix miscalculation.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1771
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 12 of 23 (816409)
08-04-2017 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by NoNukes
08-03-2017 9:20 AM


Re: Why stop there?
Thanks for this thread, Tangle. It makes me just see the wonders of nature. Some of the atoms present in my body were formed during the BB. And I thought I was getting old! 53 wonderful years and counting.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


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xongsmith
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Posts: 1800
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 13 of 23 (816445)
08-04-2017 2:49 PM


RE: why stop there?
Given that the age of the universe since the Big Bang has been estimated to be about 13.8 billion years, and that our sun is about 4.5 billion years old, with another 4.5 to go, and also that super giant stars live a shorter lifespan, there were probably many, many supernovae before the sun was even born. So pretty much everything we find on earth was already around somewhere and may not have been swept into a galaxy yet.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7141
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 14 of 23 (816454)
08-04-2017 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tanypteryx
08-02-2017 12:43 PM


Re: Why stop there?
Tanypteryx writes:

Why the one million light year boundary?

Material is being kicked out of galaxies at a limited speed, so the age of the universe probably puts the limit on how far away the material can travel. Specifically, the boundary probably comes from the supercomputer simulations.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 15 of 23 (816539)
08-05-2017 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
08-01-2017 9:12 AM


Mind Over Matter
tangle writes:

"What this new mode implies is that up to one-half of the atoms around us—including in the solar system, on Earth and in each one of us—comes not from our own galaxy but from other galaxies, up to one million light years away,"

Big deal. All we are talking about is matter. I prefer thinking of humans in regards to life and soul. Always remember that mind is over matter. A home, for example, is not bricks and mortar. It is the lives and shared experiences of the life within.

I cant figure out why it matters where the atoms came from.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

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