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Author Topic:   Elections are won in the primaries
RAZD
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Posts: 19077
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 1 of 84 (820531)
09-22-2017 10:16 AM


The way the gerrymandering has taken over the elections for representatives and senators -- with the tacit compliance of both parties -- it has now reached the point, imho, that the elections are won in the primaries.

Progressives are not going to change the democratic party from the inside.

Third party challenges rarely result in victory.

Time to run alternative candidates in republican primaries ...

Fiscally conservative
Working family centered

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
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Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by NoNukes, posted 09-23-2017 9:38 AM RAZD has responded
 Message 8 by Chiroptera, posted 09-24-2017 8:51 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 9 by anglagard, posted 09-24-2017 9:22 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 10 by Taq, posted 09-25-2017 5:02 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 09-26-2017 11:56 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Admin
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(1)
Message 2 of 84 (820572)
09-23-2017 7:42 AM


Thread Moved from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9992
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 3 of 84 (820575)
09-23-2017 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
09-22-2017 10:16 AM


Time to run alternative candidates in republican primaries ...

Fiscally conservative
Working family centered

Uh, I am a progressive...


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 09-22-2017 10:16 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 09-23-2017 9:44 AM NoNukes has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19077
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 4 of 84 (820576)
09-23-2017 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by NoNukes
09-23-2017 9:38 AM


Uh, I am a progressive...

Congratulations, you like to think outside the party boxes.

If your district is gerrymandered so that a republican, no matter how obnoxious, would win ...

But he was up against a progressive conservative in the primary

One that backed universal healthcare, working family values (minimum wage, family leave) ... would you vot for them in the primary?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by NoNukes, posted 09-23-2017 9:38 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by NoNukes, posted 09-23-2017 11:14 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 6 by NoNukes, posted 09-23-2017 10:06 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 12 by Rrhain, posted 09-26-2017 3:51 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9992
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 5 of 84 (820578)
09-23-2017 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by RAZD
09-23-2017 9:44 AM


One that backed universal healthcare, working family values (minimum wage, family leave)

NC Republican that backs universal health care and the minimum wage. Really?

I would consider voting in a Republican primary based on other baggage that being a Republican brings, but in NC, our Republican primaries are about who is the furthest right, and who aligns more closely with Trump, and who can be tarred with not hating Obamacare.

And almost certainly the Democrats I am likely to see here already support such policies, so what would I do in the general election.

"Liberal" is a cussing word for many people here, particularly for folks outside of Raleigh, Durham, and Charlotte.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 09-23-2017 9:44 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9992
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 6 of 84 (820592)
09-23-2017 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by RAZD
09-23-2017 9:44 AM


Voting for republicans
I have attached the NC Republican Party Platform from 2017. I will list a few things that would have to be repudiated before I could consider voting for any Republican:

https://convention.nc.gop/...the-2017-Platform-Committee.pdf

" We support the right of all institutions, including hospitals and schools, to refuse to provide contraceptive, abortion, or other services of procedures inconsistent with their religious tenets."

"even as we believe that marriage, as the union of one man and one woman must be upheld as the national standard"

"We support the marriage amendment as part of the North Carolina Constitution and encourage all efforts to defend it"

"We oppose public school-based health clinics that provide referrals, counseling and related services for abortion and contraception"

"We support efforts to ensure that habitual drug users are not on public assistance rolls."

"We reaffirm our support of voter ID and the repeal of straight-ticket voting."

"We support partisan elections for all offices."

"Suppliers and consumers of illegal drugs should be dealt with to the fullest extent of the law."

The above list is not exhaustive. There are even more items on the platform that are not facially unreasonable, but which have to be considered deal breakers because of the Republican spin on them.

And here is the catch-22. Once the candidate does repudiate all of that, he must have a reasonable answer to "Why the bleep are you a Republican"

For me, all of these issues would be deal breakers for politicians running for state-wide office. Many of them are deal breakers for local politicians. Now your own state's Republicans may not be as screwed up as North Carolina's but at least some of you have even more dicked up Republicans (are you feeling me Texans).

If I were to register for and vote in a Republican primary, my most likely motive is to select a loser that could not beat a Democrat. Your mileage may vary.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 09-23-2017 9:44 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Coragyps, posted 09-24-2017 11:26 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 16 by RAZD, posted 09-26-2017 5:57 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Coragyps
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Posts: 5292
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 7 of 84 (820607)
09-24-2017 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by NoNukes
09-23-2017 10:06 PM


Re: Voting for republicans
Yes, we Texans hear you loud and clear. I have long voted in the Republican primaries, as those are typically the actual election out in this part of Texas. I try to pick the least repugnant repub, to at least try to mitigate damage - but with this area going about 85% for Trump, it doesn't help too much.
I just took the (empty) seat of County Chairman for the Democratic Party here, more to see if we can create difficulties for Ted Cruz than anything else, but I'm not very optimistic. Maybe we can get it down to 82% in 2018.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by NoNukes, posted 09-23-2017 10:06 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6396
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 8 of 84 (820625)
09-24-2017 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
09-22-2017 10:16 AM


Time to run alternative candidates in republican primaries ...

I dunno, man. How many times would I need to shower during a day to get the stench off?


The Constitution of the United States was a layman's document, not a lawyer's contract. That cannot be stressed too often. - Franklin D. Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 09-22-2017 10:16 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2170
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 9 of 84 (820627)
09-24-2017 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
09-22-2017 10:16 AM


No Quarter
I strongly disagree. In reverse order:

RAZD writes:

Time to run alternative candidates in republican primaries ...

Fiscally conservative
Working family centered

Other than Gary Johnson when he was Governor of New Mexico and a few others of this now apparently extinct species, it appears every Republican since 1980 has run as a fiscal conservative and once in office spends money like a drunk sailor in port. When out of office, it's all about squandering money on things like infrastructure but once in office, it's all more defense spending and war only and suddenly "deficits don't matter."

Do you know of any Republican office holder that is a counterexample, because I don't.

Also IMHO the same applies to all Republicans and most Democrats with regard to "working family centered." All they care about is reelection and as a result only representing and rewarding rich donors, to hell with anyone else.

They flat-out don't deserve my vote or anyone else outside of that less than 1%.

Third party challenges rarely result in victory.

Agreed, but history shows it is not impossible.

Progressives are not going to change the democratic party from the inside.

I absolutely disagree because it is already happening. For example Sander's fight for Medicare for all. It does have cosponsors, something unimaginable but a few years back. It and any other humane legislation will increase over time and the Democrats will have one choice "Adapt or Die."

We have only just started. I will likely not live to see the promised land but dammit, I will fight for it until my dying breath.


The way the gerrymandering has taken over the elections for representatives and senators -- with the tacit compliance of both parties -- it has now reached the point, imho, that the elections are won in the primaries.

I have a better idea - vote for those against gerrymandering.

In fact vote for those who oppose needless war. Vote as if Black lives do indeed matter. Vote for equal rights for all, including women, minorities soon to become pluralities, and the rights of the LBGTQ community. Vote for the environment, for science, for reason. Vote against increasing income inequality by making the welfare rich pay an equal share in taxes instead of diverting all proceeds from increasing productivity exclusively to those who don't work for a living.

For me these items are matters of justice and even survival and therefore non-negotiable.

No Nazis, no vicious stupid conservatives, no traitors, no DINOs, no quarter.

Next meeting for the Democratic Socialists of America - Permian Basin is Oct 7, first we pick up trash to serve the community. Wish it was more dramatic such as the Houston DSA being the first and often only organization to reach out and help the poor and undocumented victims of hurricane Harvey. See: Socialist ideals in practice: Democratic Socialists of America muck out flooded Houston homes.

Although either does more for the vast majority than voting Republican.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 09-22-2017 10:16 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 7192
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 10 of 84 (820735)
09-25-2017 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
09-22-2017 10:16 AM


RAZD writes:

Time to run alternative candidates in republican primaries ...

Fiscally conservative
Working family centered

It is certainly doable. What we would need is for Progressives to register Republican and support a Progressive candidate in the primaries. In states with open primaries it isn't even necessary to register with a party. It's not as if there is a lie detector at the polling place, so you can vote in whichever primary you want to. Given the relatively low turnout for primaries it wouldn't take much to make a large impact.

Obviously, this can't be planned in private so Republicans will see it coming a mile away. Their response would certainly be interesting. Would they try to drum up higher turnout for primaries, or have their voters register as Democrats and nominate a staunch conservative in the Democratic primaries? Things get interesting when voters start moving off of their normal strategies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 09-22-2017 10:16 AM RAZD has responded

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19077
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 11 of 84 (820738)
09-25-2017 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Taq
09-25-2017 5:02 PM


It is certainly doable. What we would need is for Progressives to register Republican and support a Progressive candidate in the primaries. In states with open primaries it isn't even necessary to register with a party. It's not as if there is a lie detector at the polling place, so you can vote in whichever primary you want to. Given the relatively low turnout for primaries it wouldn't take much to make a large impact.

Exactly. When support for $15/hr minimum wage enjoys an 80% approval rating across the board, and universal health care (medicare for all) also enjoys a comfortable majority support, then a candidate talking these issues would move them into the republican debate.

Obviously, this can't be planned in private so Republicans will see it coming a mile away. Their response would certainly be interesting. Would they try to drum up higher turnout for primaries, or have their voters register as Democrats and nominate a staunch conservative in the Democratic primaries? Things get interesting when voters start moving off of their normal strategies.

What we currently have is certainly not working.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Taq, posted 09-25-2017 5:02 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6171
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 12 of 84 (820744)
09-26-2017 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by RAZD
09-23-2017 9:44 AM


RAZD writes:

quote:
But he was up against a progressive conservative in the primary

Um, you do understand what the term "oxymoron" is, yes?

There is no such thing as a "progressive conservative."

quote:
One that backed universal healthcare, working family values (minimum wage, family leave) ... would you vot for them in the primary?

See...none of those things are "conservative." Up against any other conservative, such a person will be identified as being for "socialized medicine," "welfare handouts," "coddling," and then let's not forget all the racist codewords that will then come along for the ride.

There is no such thing as a "good" Republican.

Indeed, elections are won in the primaries...but the primaries are won a dozen years before the election in all the other races Democrats ignore such as governor, attorney general, tax assessor, school board, etc., etc. If you want a good candidate for president, you needed to have started voting for said candidate a dozen years ago when they were on the ballot for mayor. By the time you get to national office, it's a bit late to complain about the lack of people you'd like to vote for.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

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 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 09-23-2017 9:44 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

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ringo
Member
Posts: 13718
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 13 of 84 (820749)
09-26-2017 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
09-22-2017 10:16 AM


RAZD writes:

Time to run alternative candidates in republican primaries ...


Trump managed to overthrow the Republican Party from the inside - but that was moving them in a direction that they didn't mind going, like rolling a stone downhill. Infiltrating progressives into a regressive party is trying to roll a stone uphill.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 09-22-2017 10:16 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9992
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 14 of 84 (820750)
09-26-2017 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by RAZD
09-25-2017 5:38 PM


What we currently have is certainly not working.

I can agree with that. But why would the Republican party be any easier to take over then the Democratic one?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by RAZD, posted 09-25-2017 5:38 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9992
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 15 of 84 (820752)
09-26-2017 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Rrhain
09-26-2017 3:51 AM


There is no such thing as a "good" Republican.

I have on a rare occasion found such a person. But generally speaking, in races for offices that are legitimately partisan, people who declare as Republican are trying to attract Republican voters using wedge issues. It has been nearly 60 years since a Republican wedge issue indicated anything I would have been comfortable supporting or overlooking. I can remember my dad once voting for a Republican candidate for governor over the Democrat Lester Maddox... and losing.

If you want a good candidate for president, you needed to have started voting for said candidate a dozen years ago when they were on the ballot for mayor. By the time you get to national office, it's a bit late to complain about the lack of people you'd like to vote for.

Well said. It is small wonder that the Democratic choices on the national level are so doggone poor. Republicans made a point of campaigning at the local and state level while they were losing national elections, and it seems to have paid off. Time for Democrats to build some of that same capital. If you want a choice in how that turns out, then you should either find some good progressive candidates or become one yourself.

Given the piss poor turnout Democrats have for elections other than presidential ones, if progressives are right that the lethargy is because of lack of excitement for the status quo, current democrats ought to be easy pickings.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Rrhain, posted 09-26-2017 3:51 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
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