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Author Topic:   The Sudden Dawn of the Cosmos and the Constancy of Physical Laws
Guido Arbia
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Posts: 548
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 1 of 38 (821959)
10-15-2017 11:44 PM


According to the Big Bang Theory, the universe, having never before existed, suddenly appeared at the time of the Big Bang, when something exploded, and particles spread outward through space, conforming to the Laws of Physics. Now if the Laws of Physics themselves did not exist before the Big Bang, but came into being along with all matter, how can we trust the Laws of Physics to remain constant? For if the Laws of Physics were not always what they are now, there is no reason for us to be confident that they will always be. And therefore, there is no reason to believe that the universe will not suddenly vanish or change into an elephant. But if there is a Creator who established those Laws, then it makes sense that they should be constant. And it is written of Jesus Christ in the Book of Hebrews in the Bible that He is "upholding all things by the word of his power".

Edited by Guido Arbia, : No reason given.


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AdminPhat
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From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2 of 38 (821960)
10-16-2017 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Guido Arbia
10-15-2017 11:44 PM


Science or Theology ?
Long time no see, Guido. Where would you like your topic? I'm supposing Faith & Belief but you tell me.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Guido Arbia, posted 10-15-2017 11:44 PM Guido Arbia has responded

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Guido Arbia
Member
Posts: 548
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 3 of 38 (821961)
10-16-2017 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
10-16-2017 12:47 AM


Re: Science or Theology ?
Hey. I wish there was a category that could cover both. But I guess the topic should go wherever is most appropriate.

Edited by Guido Arbia, : No reason given.

Edited by Guido Arbia, : No reason given.


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AdminPhat
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From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004
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(1)
Message 4 of 38 (821963)
10-16-2017 1:16 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the The Sudden Dawn of the Cosmos and the Constancy of Physical Laws thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

Try and stick with the logic presented. Lets all learn something here, Guido.

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


    
Phat
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Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 5 of 38 (821966)
10-16-2017 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Guido Arbia
10-15-2017 11:44 PM


This is an honest question that has several scientific explanations and fewer sound theological ones, though many theologians simply dont worry about such things. They may say something along the lines of "God surely must have created all of the laws of physics" or something like that. I did a google search and found some interesting responses.

quote:
At a singularity, all the laws of physics would have broken down. This means that the state of the universe, after the Big Bang, will not depend on anything that may have happened before, because the deterministic laws that govern the universe will break down in the Big Bang.~Stephen Hawking

https://www.quora.com/...f-physics-apply-before-the-big-bang
These guys speculate that the universe may have looked like this early on:

If we approach the question as theologians, we can easily say that God works in mysterious ways...but we really have not thought about how He does it. Science seems more creative. Comments?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

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Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 6 of 38 (821967)
10-16-2017 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Guido Arbia
10-16-2017 9:31 AM


Re: Science or Theology ?
Guido writes:

Hey. I wish there was a category that could cover both. But I guess the topic should go wherever is most appropriate.

Out of curiosity, what have you been reading and studying lately. If I recall, you were only around 17 when you first came to EvC Forum...now you must be around 26-28. What have you been studying and learning the past ten years? Also what do you think about Intelligent Design? Does it appeal to you at all? As for me, I am fascinated by traditional science but I really dont know a whole lot about the method.
Guido writes:

For if the Laws of Physics were not always what they are now, there is no reason for us to be confident that they will always be. And therefore, there is no reason to believe that the universe will not suddenly vanish or change into an elephant. But if there is a Creator who established those Laws, then it makes sense that they should be constant.

lol. How do we know that the plan isnt to change up on us and turn the universe into an elephant? After all, be honest. Some have suggested turtles. Turtles All The Way Down

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Guido Arbia, posted 10-16-2017 9:31 AM Guido Arbia has not yet responded

  
RAZD
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Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 7 of 38 (821970)
10-16-2017 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
10-16-2017 1:46 PM


links
Did the laws of physics apply before the big bang?

You had a space after "... -big-bang" before the ]

the other link is not a picture (you need to "copy image location")

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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jar
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Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(2)
Message 8 of 38 (821973)
10-16-2017 5:39 PM


Another YAWN topic
The Laws of Physics are simply human creations and of course did not exist before humans created them fairly recently.

Before the Big Bang really is another one of those fun games but doesn't have much validity or use. But it was not an explosion or an object but rather simply the point where our current descriptions break down and stop making sense.

There are lots of kids that say "well something can't come from nothing" but the correct answer at this time is "We don't know that." and NOT try to stick some unevidenced favorite fantasy in as an answer.

And can laws change?

What we can say is that there is direct and conclusive evidence that for at least the last 14 billion years the properties and processes have remained the same even though the laws do change as we learn more and more about reality.

Remember the "Laws" are absolutely nothing but human created and verifiable descriptions of what is seen in reality. The Laws do absolutely nothing but allow us to discuss what is seen.

AbE: Also, the idea that constancy might result from acts of some God, particularly the God of the Bible is just silly. The Bible is filled with examples of that God changing her mind or behaving irrationally or changing the rules of nature.

No reasonable person would ever trust an existence where the properties and performance were at the whim of anyone so unstable.

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Guido Arbia
Member
Posts: 548
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 9 of 38 (821977)
10-16-2017 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
10-16-2017 5:39 PM


Re: Another YAWN topic
quote:
The Laws of Physics are simply human creations and of course did not exist before humans created them fairly recently.

The Laws of Physics would have no power to describe nature unless they reflected, either somewhat or fully, Laws existing in nature. Otherwise scientists would not have created them, for there would be nothing upon which to base them.

quote:
There are lots of kids that say "well something can't come from nothing" but the correct answer at this time is "We don't know that." and NOT try to stick some unevidenced favorite fantasy in as an answer.

The word nothing implies that nothing can come from it. For if there is no thing, what is the cause of anything? And if a cause is not needed, why should the universe not suddenly vanish without cause? How can we rely on the scientific method to conclude anything about nature, if cause and effect being unnecessary, nature is not constant.

quote:
AbE: Also, the idea that constancy might result from acts of some God, particularly the God of the Bible is just silly. The Bible is filled with examples of that God changing her mind or behaving irrationally or changing the rules of nature.

So far the God of the Bible has a perfect track record of keeping His promises and fulfilling prophecy. Though God does seem to change His mind in response to the actions of men, He changes it according to His word, which tells us the way that He will deal with us. Hebrews says, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and forever."


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jar
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Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 10 of 38 (821979)
10-16-2017 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Guido Arbia
10-16-2017 6:56 PM


Re: Another YAWN topic
Guido writes:

How can we rely on the scientific method to conclude anything about nature, if cause and effect being unnecessary, nature is not constant.

Yup, another big YAWN.

We can look at past experience as I already pointed out to you and see that for at least 14 billion years the processes have been going on pretty much as they do today.

Guido writes:

So far the God of the Bible has a perfect track record of keeping His promises and fulfilling prophecy

Bullshit.

That is utter nonsense as you well know. We have examined Biblical Prophecy numerous times here at EvC and so far almost none have been supportable.

Guido writes:

Hebrews says, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and forever."

Which again is one of those loved quote mined lines taken out of context that has absolutely no value or meaning.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin ee in hr


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Dr Adequate
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Joined: 07-20-2006
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(2)
Message 11 of 38 (821981)
10-16-2017 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Guido Arbia
10-15-2017 11:44 PM


Guido, if there's one thing the Bible makes absolutely crystal clear, it's that the existence of God does not guarantee the absence of breaches of the laws of nature. On the contrary, the book is full of God making donkeys talk and making the sun stand still in the sky and raising the dead and turning water into wine. (Not to mention the supporting cast of wizards and witches and saints and magi with their various magical powers.)

The Bible teaches us that there is a being who can, and who does violate the laws of nature, and who has motivations so inscrutable as to appear to us merely capricious: a being who can do anything and might. If you want to worry about the universe turning into an elephant, worry about him doing it. Certainly you cannot claim that the existence of an entity who can and does perform miracles would act as a guarantee that miracles will not take place.


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DC85
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Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 12 of 38 (821982)
10-16-2017 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Guido Arbia
10-15-2017 11:44 PM


when something exploded

It's not really an explosion it's more like time and space suddenly expanding which is still happening.


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PaulK
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Posts: 13368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 13 of 38 (821983)
10-17-2017 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Guido Arbia
10-16-2017 6:56 PM


Re: Another YAWN topic
quote:

So far the God of the Bible has a perfect track record of keeping His promises and fulfilling prophecy.

Which is why the world came to an end in the 2nd Century BC (Daniel). And the 1st Century AD (the Gospels).

quote:

Though God does seem to change His mind in response to the actions of men, He changes it according to His word, which tells us the way that He will deal with us. Hebrews says, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and forever."

Leviticus tells us that God will always do what he says he will do. Jeremiah says that God can and does change his mind.


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Pressie
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Posts: 1856
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 14 of 38 (821985)
10-17-2017 12:08 AM


Guido Arbia writes:

... For if the Laws of Physics were not always what they are now, there is no reason for us to be confident that they will always be. And therefore, there is no reason to believe that the universe will not suddenly vanish or change into an elephant. But if there is a Creator who established those Laws, then it makes sense that they should be constant...

Nope, the other way round. If there were a Creator or Creators who can and could do anything and everything at a whim, then we would expect the Laws of Nature to change. All the evidence we have show that the way the Universe works has not changed for more than 13 billion years. Therefore no Creator or Creators.
    
Phat
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Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 15 of 38 (821988)
10-17-2017 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
10-16-2017 5:39 PM


The YAWN and the RESTLESS
jar writes:

The Laws of Physics are simply human creations and of course did not exist before humans created them fairly recently.
Before the Big Bang really is another one of those fun games but doesn't have much validity or use. But it was not an explosion or an object but rather simply the point where our current descriptions break down and stop making sense.

Dr.Stephen Hawking seemingly challenges your assumptions.
Stephen Hawking says universe not created by God
• Physics, not creator, made Big Bang, new book claims
• Professor had previously referred to 'mind of God'
In the new work, The Grand Design, Professor Stephen Hawking argues that the Big Bang, rather than occurring following the intervention of a divine being, was inevitable due to the law of gravity. (...)"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing," he writes. "Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.

Doesnt this imply that the law of gravity existed before humans invented the words to call it a law and the experiments to verify the behavior?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

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