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Author Topic:   Bernie Sanders is a Centerist
DC85
Member
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


(1)
Message 1 of 76 (822141)
10-19-2017 11:59 PM


In another ongoing topic about primaries a few comments peaked my interest and it got me wondering where exactly is the political "center" is. If you ask those in DC, they would swear to you that the country is "center right" and that we are much closer to Republicans as a nation than to the left. Indeed when people are polled and asked to label themselves they do tend to favor calling themselves "moderate" or "conservative" ( http://news.gallup.com/...-gap-continues-narrow-tuesday.aspx )

However , when you look at polls on individual issues they tell a different story majorities are almost always to the left on a given issue

Healthcare and Single payer around 60% of Americans support ( http://www.pewresearch.org/...rage-grows-driven-by-democrats )

Increasing the minimum wage increase has wide bipartisan support ( http://thehill.com/...majority-supports-raising-minimum-wage )

Heck even in deep red state South Carolina a resounding 2/3 support wage increase ( http://www.thestate.com/...ogs/the-buzz/article13757501.html )

THe majority including a majority of Republicans support Tuition free college ( https://morningconsult.com/...stabs_Politico_LIM_v1_AP-1.pdf )

Virtually any topic, Americans are on what is called the left and in line with Senator Sanders , How is it that that such a huge disconnect exists ?

Edited by DC85, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Coyote, posted 10-20-2017 1:06 AM DC85 has responded
 Message 8 by Taq, posted 10-20-2017 11:46 AM DC85 has not yet responded
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 10-20-2017 12:04 PM DC85 has not yet responded

    
Coyote
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Posts: 6025
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2 of 76 (822142)
10-20-2017 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DC85
10-19-2017 11:59 PM


How is it that that such a huge disconnect exists ?

Those questions don't specify who is to pay for all of the benefits.

Once people realize that they might have to pay for the "freebies," attitudes change a lot.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DC85, posted 10-19-2017 11:59 PM DC85 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by DC85, posted 10-20-2017 1:37 AM Coyote has not yet responded
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DC85
Member
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 3 of 76 (822143)
10-20-2017 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Coyote
10-20-2017 1:06 AM


Once people realize that they might have to pay for the "freebies," attitudes change a lot.

What wide source do you have for this? In my experience people are fine with marginal tax increases so long they understand what is gained from it. Here is an example from where I live http://www.richmond.com/...-4673-11e3-9fdb-0019bb30f31a.html


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Pressie
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Posts: 1824
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 4 of 76 (822146)
10-20-2017 6:01 AM


I think that Bernie is right wing. Actually, his policies border on being to be similar to the far right.

In America he's been described as being far left.

Elsewhere the policies of the Dems and Reps are considered to be very close to those of the fascists and a lot of the
current crop of elected Dems are not very far from that.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


    
RAZD
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Posts: 19215
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


(5)
Message 5 of 76 (822158)
10-20-2017 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Coyote
10-20-2017 1:06 AM


Those questions don't specify who is to pay for all of the benefits.

Once people realize that they might have to pay for the "freebies," attitudes change a lot.

In the last decades since Reagan there has been a massive shift of taxes from the rich to the middle class and poor.

All that is needed to pay for Bernie's plans is a shift back towards the tax rates under Eisenhower. Bernie's plan to fund his issues was fairly simple:

https://berniesanders.com/...w-bernie-pays-for-his-proposals

This shifts the taxes back to the rich and off the poor and middle class.

Once people realize that they get more bang for their tax buck, especially when you include the cost of health insurance (versus medicare for all) and the tuition costs of higher education (versus free college tuition), with your current tax rate, so you compare total costs before and after, then their approval rises sharply.

Enjoy


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Coyote, posted 10-20-2017 1:06 AM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Diomedes, posted 10-20-2017 9:50 AM RAZD has responded
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-20-2017 12:44 PM RAZD has responded

  
Diomedes
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Posts: 667
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 6 of 76 (822159)
10-20-2017 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by RAZD
10-20-2017 9:09 AM


All that is needed to pay for Bernie's plans is a shift back towards the tax rates under Eisenhower. Bernie's plan to fund his issues was fairly simple:

https://berniesanders.com/...w-bernie-pays-for-his-proposals
This shifts the taxes back to the rich and off the poor and middle class.

Once people realize that they get more bang for their tax buck, especially when you include the cost of health insurance (versus medicare for all) and the tuition costs of higher education (versus free college tuition), with your current tax rate, so you compare total costs before and after, then their approval rises sharply.

Sadly, the Democrats can't articulate this to save their life. That is one of the most baffling things I have seen is that many of the Democrat policies are viewed in a favorable light by the majority populace. However, the Dems really need to learn how to do better marketing. The Republicans are very adept at spin and effective communication.

I think the main issue is Republicans like to beat the drum of 'trickle down economics' and constantly use that phrase to persuade the general populace that if higher taxes for the rich are enacted, it will mean job losses for the middle class. The extremely simple Dem response to this should be: rich people don't use their own incomes to pay salaries. Salaries are paid through corporations and LLCs. Raising taxes on some rich asshole will do NOTHING to the salaries or jobs of working class middle income Americans. Jobs and salaries are driven by supply/demand for goods and services and the profit from those transactions are what pays salaries.

If someone on the Dem side could, once and for all, articulate the above in a manner that the people can understand, it will go a long way towards being able to enact more reasonable services and decrease the massive wealth divide in our country.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 10-20-2017 9:09 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1379
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 7 of 76 (822164)
10-20-2017 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Coyote
10-20-2017 1:06 AM


Coyote writes:

Once people realize that they might have to pay for the "freebies," attitudes change a lot.

If one counts all the various programs and expenses related to the U.S. military such as Overseas Contingency Operations, National Nuclear Security Administration, and Department of Homeland Security, America’s annual military budget is actually closer to $1.6 trillion rather than the roughly $700 billion the media dutifully reports. Astonishingly, this true amount is comparable to half the world’s military expenditures.

Amerikan senators just recently voted for the National Defense Authorization Act that will increase military spending by an additional $81 billion. Over an additional billion dollars of the increase will go toward strengthening foreign militaries, mostly human-rights violator, Israel.

The tax payer pays for this "freebie." Specifically YOU Coyote, will have to pay for this. Money spent on weapons for other countries. Instead of american health care and american education.

Just when can I expect YOUR attitude to change?

Be specific.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Coyote, posted 10-20-2017 1:06 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Taq
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Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 8 of 76 (822166)
10-20-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DC85
10-19-2017 11:59 PM


DC85 writes:

How is it that that such a huge disconnect exists ?

Republicans have been able to portray Democrats as being anti-Christian, anti-gun, and anti-American and con a lot of people into believing it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DC85, posted 10-19-2017 11:59 PM DC85 has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13864
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 9 of 76 (822168)
10-20-2017 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DC85
10-19-2017 11:59 PM


DC85 writes:

Virtually any topic, Americans are on what is called the left and in line with Senator Sanders , How is it that that such a huge disconnect exists ?


The labels are overly simplistic.

I consider myself fairly left in Canada, which would be left of left in the US. But I don't believe in taxing the rich. I believe in paying the poor enough that they can afford to pay the taxes.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11812
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 10 of 76 (822170)
10-20-2017 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by RAZD
10-20-2017 9:09 AM


In the last decades since Reagan there has been a massive shift of taxes from the rich to the middle class and poor.

What taxes are you talking about? Federal income taxes?

This shifts the taxes back to the rich and off the poor and middle class.

Is this information not correct:

quote:
The top 1 percent of income earners, those having an adjusted annual gross income of $480,930 or higher, pay about 39 percent of federal income taxes.

The top 10 percent of income earners, those having an adjusted gross income over $138,031, pay about 70.6 percent of federal income taxes.

The bottom 50 percent of income earners, those having an adjusted gross income of $39,275 or less, pay 2.83 percent of federal income taxes.
sauce



This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by DC85, posted 10-20-2017 3:32 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
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 Message 20 by RAZD, posted 10-22-2017 2:45 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
DC85
Member
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 11 of 76 (822176)
10-20-2017 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
10-20-2017 12:44 PM


What taxes are you talking about? Federal income taxes?

Yes indeed for example he took the top rate from 70% down to 28%

He also increased taxes 11 times but most of those impacted the middle class and poor, these were ranged from taxing social security to removing deductions and benefit programs. He also barred pension recipients from getting Social Security despite still having to pay the pay roll tax


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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11812
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 12 of 76 (822177)
10-20-2017 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by DC85
10-20-2017 3:32 PM


What taxes are you talking about? Federal income taxes?

Yes indeed for example he took the top rate from 70% down to 28%

And, yet, the top 10% still pay 70% of the federal income taxes?

How could these taxes have been shifted from the rich to the poor/middle if the rich are still paying most of the taxes?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by DC85, posted 10-20-2017 3:32 PM DC85 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Modulous, posted 10-20-2017 5:37 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 14 by DC85, posted 10-20-2017 6:37 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
Modulous
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Posts: 7499
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 13 of 76 (822185)
10-20-2017 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by New Cat's Eye
10-20-2017 4:49 PM


And, yet, the top 10% still pay 70% of the federal income taxes?

Why yes, income inequality is quite significant.

So if we say 100 million people pay Federal taxes. The top 10% earn on average $300,000 and they pay $120,000 in taxes (simplified 40%). Thats a total of $1,200,000,000,000

The bottom 90% ear $30,000 and pay 15% tax for a tax of $4,500 to a total of 405,000,000,000

Total taxes = $1,605,000,000,000
Top 10% = 75% of taxes

If we continue the simplification and have the top tax be 70% then each tax of those rich would be $210,000 resulting in $2,100,000,000,000 keeping the tax of the rest the same

$2,505,000,000,000 total tax, and the top 10% would be paying 84% of the taxes

If the budget were to remain the same - the bottom 90% would actually not need to pay any tax at all. Again, this assumes a tax structure that is not realistic - since it would be crazy for someone who earned $250,000 to suddenly lose money if they got a $50,000 pay rise...but still.

How could these taxes have been shifted from the rich to the poor/middle if the rich are still paying most of the taxes?

Because that's how numbers work.

I have 71 apples. You have 1 apple.

Someone comes and takes one of my apples and gives it to you.

I have 70 apples. You have 2 apples.

There has been a shift of apples from me to you. I still have the most apples.

If the simplified example above was reversed - a 70% tax to 40% tax for the richest and a 0% tax to 15% tax rise for the rest -- one might say there had been a massive shift of taxes from the rich to the middle class and poor.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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DC85
Member
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 14 of 76 (822188)
10-20-2017 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by New Cat's Eye
10-20-2017 4:49 PM


How could these taxes have been shifted from the rich to the poor/middle if the rich are still paying most of the taxes?

They had their taxes lowered while taxes that impact middle and poor people were increased.

Now I know you aren't playing this game as we are talking about percentages of income.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-20-2017 4:49 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11812
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 15 of 76 (822198)
10-20-2017 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Modulous
10-20-2017 5:37 PM


There has been a shift of apples from me to you. I still have the most apples.

Ah, I was potentially misreading RAZD with an unintended implication that would be analogously to: there has been a shift of *most* of the apples from you to me.

If I had read: "there has been a shift of apples from you to me", I would have read that as being a significant amount rather than just one of 70 of them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Modulous, posted 10-20-2017 5:37 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
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