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Author Topic:   REMIX: Who Can Be Saved?
Phat
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Posts: 10818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1 of 24 (824022)
11-21-2017 8:21 AM


REMIX: Who Can Be Saved? A Christian Perspective. Originated by jar.
**************************************************************

jar writes:

IMHO, as a Christian, anyone can be saved whether or not they acknowledge or profess a belief in Jesus or even GOD. In fact, even if they deny the existence of GOD they can and will likely be saved.

Jesus said that there are two commandments, Love God and the two-parter, love others as you love yourself.

Basically, that's it, love GOD and love others as you love yourself.

So the question is, "Do you have to acknowledge GOD or even believe in GOD to Love GOD?"

IMHO and according to the Bible, the answer is "No. You can love GOD without acknowledging GOD or even if you deny GOD's very existence."

If you examine Matthew 25 31:46, it is pretty clear what is needed to love GOD.

31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

And when you read that, there is nothing about professing GOD or Jesus, nothing about being a Jew or Christian, nothing about being religious. In fact, many who profess a belief in Jesus, who are good Christians, Jews or Muslims, will certainly be Goats and not sheep while many atheists and agnostics will certainly be sheep and not goats.
So to others out there, whether you are Christian, one of the other Judaic faiths, agnostic or even atheist, what do you think? Who can be saved and how do you support your position?

Faith & Belief, Please.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

Replies to this message:
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Message 2 of 24 (824024)
11-21-2017 11:26 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the REMIX: Who Can Be Saved? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 3 of 24 (831728)
04-23-2018 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
11-21-2017 8:21 AM


The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Peter Kreeft is a Catholic Apologist who is one of my favorites. He recently was attributed for this quote:
quote:
God created the possibility of evil; people actualized that potentiality. The source of evil is not God's power but mankind's freedom. Even an all-powerful God could not have created a world in which people had genuine freedom and yet there was no potentiality for sin because our freedom includes the possibility of sin within its own meaning.
You say that Christianity need not be a religion but simply an altruistic way of life-based upon what one does on a daily basis.

While I don't disagree with your philosophical approach, I wanted to ask others what merit Kreeft's quote has on their own personal belief system.

After all, it does make sense that God allowed a possibility of evil yet made it so it is not a foregone actuality.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 11-21-2017 8:21 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 04-23-2018 5:28 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 04-23-2018 5:56 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 04-24-2018 11:46 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
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Posts: 30429
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 4 of 24 (831739)
04-23-2018 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
04-23-2018 3:39 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
The man is an Apologist.

Nuff Said!


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 04-23-2018 3:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
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Posts: 5784
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 5 of 24 (831743)
04-23-2018 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
04-23-2018 3:39 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Phat writes:

God created the possibility of evil

Then he's either a fucking idiot or a sadist.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 04-23-2018 3:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
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Posts: 14668
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 6 of 24 (831763)
04-24-2018 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
04-23-2018 3:39 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
The source of evil is not God's power but mankind's freedom.

And the source of man's freedom is God's power. Therefore, the source of evil is God.

And the kicker is that God said so Himself:

quote:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

So, if an apologist says otherwise, don't believe him.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 04-23-2018 3:39 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 04-26-2018 10:35 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 7 of 24 (831881)
04-26-2018 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by ringo
04-24-2018 11:46 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
You are making it too cut and dried. Instead of trying to hold the definition of what God can do and not do to the book written by humans about Him, why not feel free to speculate?

Humans have freedom to a limited degree. We cannot flap our arms and fly, for instance, but we can build airplanes. We cannot live a life free from the constraints of oxygen because we need oxygen to live. Does this then mean that we are not truly free? Not at all...it only means we cannot create the reality that we want.

And the source of man's freedom is God's power. Therefore, the source of evil is God.
And yet you don't believe that He even exists. Are you not free?

Blaming God for our imprisonment is like blaming oxygen for not allowing us to live without it. A pointless exercise in futility.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 04-24-2018 11:46 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 04-26-2018 11:39 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14668
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 8 of 24 (831884)
04-26-2018 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
04-26-2018 10:35 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Phat writes:

Instead of trying to hold the definition of what God can do and not do to the book written by humans about Him, why not feel free to speculate?


So accept the Bible when it's convenient and just make up the rest?

Phat writes:

Does this then mean that we are not truly free? Not at all...it only means we cannot create the reality that we want.


But according to you we do create the reality of Hell ourselves, don't we?

Phat writes:

And yet you don't believe that He even exists. Are you not free?


I suppose I'm freer than somebody who's trying to please "God".

Phat writes:

Blaming God for our imprisonment is like blaming oxygen for not allowing us to live without it.


Well, no. Oxygen didn't create the constraints.

You can't have it both ways. If your God id the creator of all things seen and unseen, He has to take responsibility for something.


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 04-26-2018 10:35 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 04-26-2018 3:51 PM ringo has responded
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 3:58 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 9 of 24 (831888)
04-26-2018 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
04-26-2018 11:39 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
ringo writes:

If your God is the creator of all things seen and unseen, He has to take responsibility for something.

Allow me to present an analogy.

At one point in time, there was no such thing as "Gods Way." There was only "The Way".

"The Way" corresponded perfectly with reality as it existed. Nobody really knows what a world was then like without "evil". If one stubbed ones toe, would it then turn purple? Would one even stub a toe in such an environment? Did bees even sting? We dont really know because we now live in a reality where all sorts of scenarios are possible. Perhaps all sorts of realities and outcomes as well. For some rational minds, living in an unfettered environment with chosen response to reality unfettered by any obligation to a God is preferable to living under the auspices of "Gods Way". Does that make any sense?

GOD: Accept Jesus, ringo. You know that you can trust me.
ringo: No, no I don't. You flooded the place once. Why cant you just leave us all alone and alow us to become responsible?

GOD: Look around you. Wars, hunger, greed. When will it ever stop?

ringo: Its not like you've helped much. Half of all that was caused by your followers in the first place.

GOD: And you are one of my best followers. I see your spare change altruism on a daily basis.

ringo: I don't do that for you. I do it for them. Its what I do.

GOD: You always were one of my more independant children.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 04-26-2018 11:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 04-27-2018 11:44 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14668
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 10 of 24 (831915)
04-27-2018 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
04-26-2018 3:51 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Phat writes:

Would one even stub a toe in such an environment? Did bees even sting? We dont really know because we now live in a reality where all sorts of scenarios are possible. Perhaps all sorts of realities and outcomes as well. For some rational minds....


In such an environment, why would anybody even need a rational mind? You could go around kicking things and smashing beehives with no pesky consequences to think about. But if God created a real world with real consequences and if He created us with rational minds to deal with those circumstances, why wouldn't He expect us to use our minds?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 04-26-2018 3:51 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 11:19 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 11 of 24 (835405)
06-23-2018 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
04-27-2018 11:44 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
ringo writes:

But if God created a real world with real consequences and if He created us with rational minds to deal with those circumstances, why wouldn't He expect us to use our minds?

Perhaps He expects us to question, doubt, and challenge Him. Simply saving everybody, however, is too easy. Of course, that brings up the question as to why people are even lost initially, to begin with.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 04-27-2018 11:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 12:00 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14668
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 12 of 24 (835414)
06-23-2018 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
06-23-2018 11:19 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
Phat writes:

Perhaps He expects us to question, doubt, and challenge Him.


Expects us to grow up, instead of staying in the Playpen of Eden forever?

Phat writes:

Simply saving everybody, however, is too easy. Of course, that brings up the question as to why people are even lost initially, to begin with.


Remember that He's "saving" us from Himself. We're only "lost" because of Him. It's like being "lost" on a tropical island where we're reasonably happy and contented but He insists on "rescuing" us against our will.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 11:19 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 4:05 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 13 of 24 (835462)
06-23-2018 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
04-26-2018 11:39 AM


Ringo-round and round it goes
Phat writes:

Instead of trying to hold the definition of what God can do and not do to the book written by humans about Him, why not feel free to speculate?


So accept the Bible when it's convenient and just make up the rest?
According to you its all made up anyway. So whats the difference?
Phat writes:

Does this then mean that we are not truly free? ...Not at all...it only means we cannot create the reality that we want.
But according to you we do create the reality of Hell ourselves, don't we?

Blaming God for our imprisonment is like blaming oxygen for not allowing us to live without it.


Well, no. Oxygen didn't create the constraints.
No, reality did. if God is a part of reality, we will need to deal with Him eventually. And for all practical purposes, it matters not whether oxygen created the constraints or whether reality did---you still can't live without oxygen and there is no use to blame it.

You can't have it both ways. If your God is the creator of all things seen and unseen, He has to take responsibility for something.
And yet you also insist that humans take responsibility. Perhaps there is a communion after all!

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 04-26-2018 11:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 4:16 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 14 of 24 (835463)
06-23-2018 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by ringo
06-23-2018 12:00 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil..To Jar:
ringo writes:

We're only "lost" because of Him. It's like being "lost" on a tropical island where we're reasonably happy and contented but He insists on "rescuing" us against our will.

Perhaps He knows that the volcano on that Island will soon erupt. Perhaps He wants us to have alternatives to the Island alone.

And why would being "rescued" be against our will? Are we that stubborn that we won't allow Him to help us? Are we so proud that we feel we have outgrown our belief in Him?

Have we become so tainted by the fallibilities of organized religion that we cant accept God at all? Are we so stuck on our own evolved wisdom that we think we need evidence before proceeding with a belief?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 12:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 06-23-2018 4:24 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14668
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 15 of 24 (835465)
06-23-2018 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
06-23-2018 3:58 PM


Re: Ringo-round and round it goes
Phat writes:

According to you its all made up anyway. So whats the difference?


I wouldn't say it's all made up - but if you're going to believe that some of it is true - e.g. Jesus - then shouldn' t you be consistent?

Phat writes:

if God is a part of reality, we will need to deal with Him eventually.


How does that follow? The Andromeda galaxy is a part of reality and I don't feel any pressing need to deal with that.

Phat writes:

And yet you also insist that humans take responsibility. Perhaps there is a communion after all!


I don't see how that follows either. We need to take responsibility for our fellow man because your God doesn't.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 3:58 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 06-23-2018 4:20 PM ringo has not yet responded

  
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