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Author Topic:   Dogma vs Evidence
jar
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From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 1 of 4 (832918)
05-14-2018 9:34 AM


In Message 196 of Religion or Science - How do they compare? Faith says ...

Faith writes:

The Bible was directly and personally inspired by God, meaning the men who wrote it were guided by God.

The Bible is a compilation of Spirit-inspired writings by God's own chosen prophets and apostles.

... but what does the evidence show?

In that thread I pointed out that the God in Genesis 1 is described as having a totally different character than the God found in Genesis 2&3; that the order of creation and method of creation were mutually exclusive and contradictory in the two stories and that the God in Genesis 2&3 is described as somewhat bumbling, learning on the job, unsure and fearful and also that no Fall is described in the story but rather according to God man was actually raised to be more god-like.

But the Bible is filled with contradictions and factual errors and when examined honestly looks far more like evolving folk tales than some Spirit-inspired writings.

Here are two more examples that have been covered in the past when Faith participated but had no explanation beyond reciting the dogma of her Cult.

First, the evolution of the Great Commission, the very charge alleged to have been given directly to the "Disciples" and passed on as the charge to the Apostles and all Christians. Taken from The evolution of the Great Commission over time.

quote:

Actually living the Great Commission is a bummer. Trying to do what Jesus charged us to do was a hard sell in his day and near impossible today. So shortly after his death the various folk trying to market the franchise started making the product more attractive, selling the sizzle instead of the steak.

That is not just a new tactic, by the time the author of John's Gospel was writing the advertising it was pretty obvious. Look at the Great Commission as found in Matthew 28:

quote:
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

"19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

Obey what I have commanded you.

If you read all of Matthew, you will find that what we are commanded to do is "try to do our best for others."

There is nothing in there about salvation, nothing in there about an afterlife, nothing in there about any benefits that the disciples would get. It is about going and doing, about feeding and clothing and seeing that folk have clean water and shelter and jobs.

By the time the advertiser came back and revised Mark adding the "Long Ending", the Great Commission had begun to change.

quote:
14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.


Originally Mark ended with just an empty tomb and the women running away afraid, but that was a really hard sell. So at sometime someone came back and added the parts from Mark 16:10-20.

This version is much different. It now has some real benefits, salvation just for believing and getting baptized and the chance to do some really neat tricks. It is a much easier sale, all you need to do is go profess the "Good News" rather than just doing little stuff like feeding and clothing and shelter. AND it offers a real reward.

Then along came the author of John, and he makes the deal even sweeter.

quote:
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."


Now the doors are locked and Jesus still shows up and for the first time, the disciples are given the power to even override GOD. If they forgive sins the sins are forgiven but if they don't forgive sins then the person is damned.

Now that is real power.

This trend of marketing Christianity has continued on down until today.

You gotta admit that telling someone all they need to do is believe and get baptized is a whole lot easier to sell then telling them they gotta do for the least of these with no guarantee of reward. And you gotta admit telling folk "I have the power to damn you" is a pretty strong incentive.

So was the evolution of the post resurrection story and the Great Commission driven by marketing pressure?

The post resurrection story and Great Commission is covered again in Luke and once again, it is entirely different than the others.

In the Luke tale the emphasis on doing work is entirely gone and the story takes place at various locations and Jesus comes off much closer to the Greek God visiting mankind tradition than the Jewish tradition in the earlier Matthew version.

Luke 24 writes:

13And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.

14And they talked together of all these things which had happened.

15And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.

16But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

17And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

18And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

19And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

20And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

21But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

22Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;

23And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.

24And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.

25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

28And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.

29But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.

30And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

31And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

32And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

33And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,

34Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.

35And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.

36And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

41And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43And he took it, and did eat before them.

44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48And ye are witnesses of these things.

49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

50And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

51And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

And instead of feeding and clothing and sheltering and comforting and teaching, all that is needed is for the apostle to preach repentance and remission of sin.

The final version of the story appears in Acts.

quote:
Acts 1

1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.


In this last version yet another feature gets introduced, the issue of restoring the Kingdom of Israel.

This is very important because it is the beginning of the redefinition of the Messiah from what the term had always meant to the Jews to what evolved in Christianity.


And next, the Evolution of the "Road to Damascus" experience taken from Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men?.

quote:
Faith writes:

It is of course the Bible that tells us that Paul met Jesus, on the Damascus Road, and of course it is only your prejudice against such supernatural happenings that causes you to reject this evidence.

Well let's look beyond your unsupported assertions and at the actual evidence.

There are several possible references. Let's begin with First Corinthians.

quote:

1 Corinthians 15:3-8King James Version (KJV)

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.


Here there is a claim by Paul that he saw Jesus after Jesus' execution. There is no mention of meeting, knowing or talking with Jesus.

Then there is Galatians.

quote:

Galatians 1:11-16King James Version (KJV)

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:


Again, no claim that Paul ever met with Jesus only that he had a revelation. By the way, parts of this version directly contradict the story in Acts and the two versions found in Acts also contain contradictions.

So let's look at Acts.

quote:

Acts 9:3-9King James Version (KJV)

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.


Again, here only a vision is mentioned, no sign that Paul ever met or knew Jesus.

There is a later version also in Acts:

quote:
Acts 22 King James Version (KJV)

22 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.

2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)

3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.

7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.

12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,

13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.

14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Again, there is no mention of Paul ever meeting or talking with Jesus.

But see if you can also spot the other contradictions found in the passages?

...

Faith writes:

The very evidence that the account is true, that Paul tells the story slightly differently each time, is treated as evidence that it's false. Have you ever told a story about yourself in exactly the same way twice? No, but Paul has to or he's lying. And as usual you are inventing contradictions where they should be read as building on one another.

Thanks for providing yet more evidence that the Bible is not the inerrant word of God Faith. Knew I could count on you.

Let's look yet again at what the Bible actually says Faith.

The earliest account is from First Corinthians. It is very simple and straight forward and just says Paul claims to have seen Jesus after his death.

quote:

1 Corinthians 15:3-8King James Version (KJV):

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.


Just a simple story, no one else with him, no voices, no light, no struck blind; just a claim to have seen Jesus and note that he is only repeating what is said in scripture of the day; no revelation.

About a year later there is the account found in Galatians.

quote:
Galatians 1:11-16King James Version (KJV)

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:


Now the story has been elaborated a little, Instead of preaching what he learned from Scripture he claims a revelation of Jesus Christ and that he was called by God, not Jesus to preach about Jesus. But still no voices, no lights, no companions, no struck blind, no vision regained ...

While elaboration and adding elements to a story is perfectly normal for humans, it does destroy any claim of inerrancy.

But wait, there's more. Then we come to the hearsay reports found in Acts. In Acts we see the author writing dialog for the Paul Character that again expands on the earlier simple tale and adds all kinds of woo factors that just were not in the original ones, the light and voices and blindness and witnesses that see different things in the two tales and do different things in the two tales plus the later account is definitely tailored to play well to a Jewish audience.

quote:
Acts 9:3-9King James Version (KJV)

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.


quote:
Acts 22 King James Version (KJV)

22 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.

2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)

3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.

7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.

12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,

13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.

14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


So yes, humans do vary stories when they retell them and elaborate and exaggerate and make stuff up and embellish but those are all human characteristics not of inerrancy.


So here again is positive evidence that the Bible is not inerrant and instead simply the product of human imagination.

The question is, "What evidence other than the dogma of her Cult exists to support the claims Faith makes?"


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 05-14-2018 10:14 AM jar has responded

AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1863
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 4 (832919)
05-14-2018 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
05-14-2018 9:34 AM


Which way do you want this posse to ride?
jar writes:

In Message 196 of Religion or Science - How do they compare? Faith says ...

Faith writes:

The Bible was directly and personally inspired by God, meaning the men who wrote it were guided by God.

The Bible is a compilation of Spirit-inspired writings by God's own chosen prophets and apostles.

... but what does the evidence show?

Is this topic focused on evidence, dogma and belief, or both?

jar writes:

But the Bible is filled with contradictions and factual errors and when examined honestly looks far more like evolving folk tales than some Spirit-inspired writings.

Critics would point out that many Theologians don't see it as you do and not simply because they are dishonest. Perhaps they embrace dogma and belief because they actually believe that a Creator of all seen and unseen has an ongoing communication with humanity. Are you going to demand evidence from them or are you going to accept that they embrace the dogma of their cult and that this so-called cult is arguably quite large. In other words, will this topic allow dogma alongside evidence or will you turn the conversation back to your logic, reason, reality style of teaching that EvC Forum is full of?

jar,to Faith writes:

Well let's look beyond your unsupported assertions and at the actual evidence.

One could argue that her assertions are supported by the dogma of the larger cult, or group of believers. Again, will you allow dogma to be introduced as a form of support for this type of thinking?

jar writes:

So here again is positive evidence that the Bible is not inerrant and instead simply the product of human imagination.

The question is, "What evidence other than the dogma of her Cult exists to support the claims Faith makes?"

So before I promote this, keep in mind that Faith may not even appear to defend her dogmatic beliefs...and I certainly won't in my Phat role. Can you clarify which direction you want this topic to go?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 05-14-2018 9:34 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 05-14-2018 10:27 AM AdminPhat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30500
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 3 of 4 (832921)
05-14-2018 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
05-14-2018 10:14 AM


Re: Which way do you want this posse to ride?
The title is Dogma vs Evidence Phat.

AdminPhat writes:

Critics would point out that many Theologians don't see it as you do and not simply because they are dishonest. Perhaps they embrace dogma and belief because they actually believe that a Creator of all seen and unseen has an ongoing communication with humanity. Are you going to demand evidence from them or are you going to accept that they embrace the dogma of their cult and that this so-called cult is arguably quite large. In other words, will this topic allow dogma alongside evidence or will you turn the conversation back to your logic, reason, reality style of teaching that EvC Forum is full of?

They will be expected to either support their assertions with actual evidence or simply admit that all they have is dogma.

AdminPhat writes:

One could argue that her assertions are supported by the dogma of the larger cult, or group of believers. Again, will you allow dogma to be introduced as a form of support for this type of thinking?

Dogma may be introduced as dogma or beliefs but if there is a claim of dogma reflecting reality or actual existence then the evidence supporting that claim would be expected.

AdminPhat writes:

So before I promote this, keep in mind that Faith may not even appear to defend her dogmatic beliefs...and I certainly won't in my Phat role. Can you clarify which direction you want this topic to go?

You actually quoted the answer; the question is, "What evidence other than the dogma of her Cult exists to support the claims Faith makes?"


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 05-14-2018 10:14 AM AdminPhat has not yet responded

AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1863
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 4 of 4 (832925)
05-14-2018 10:29 AM


Thread Copied to Faith and Belief Forum
Thread copied to the Dogma vs Evidence thread in the Faith and Belief forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.
  
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