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Author Topic:   Hubble's Law Disproves Young Earth Creationism
Calvin
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Posts: 9
From: California
Joined: 05-14-2018


Message 1 of 36 (832951)
05-14-2018 10:00 PM


I take the position that the Universe is about 13.8 billion years old and the Earth is about 4.5 billion years old. In my opinion, one of the larger pieces of evidence against a young Earth, is Hubble's Law.

Hubble's law states that galaxies outside of the Local Group are moving away from earth, and the speed at which they are moving away is proportional to the distance they are from Earth.

In a formula Hubble's Law is the following:

V=DH

Meaning the speed at which a distant galaxy is moving in km/s is equivalent to its distance from earth in megaparsecs (mpc) multiplied by Hubble's Constant, which is about 71.

With this formula we can calculate the age of the earth.

V=DH

(1/H)V=D

1/H=D/V

Distance divided by velocity is time. So we now know the age of the universe is equal to the inverse of Hubble's Constant.

1/H=T

Hubble's Constant is in [km/s]/[mpc] so we can plug that in.

1/71([km/s]/[mpc])=T

There are 3.0857e19 kilometers in a megaparsec.

1/71([km/s]/3.0857e19[km])=T

We can cancel out the kilometers and get the following:

1/71/3.0857e19[s]=T

1/171/3.0857e19[s]=T

3.0857e19/71[s]=T

So the universe is 4.3460563e17 seconds old. Which is 13.78 billion years.

So my question to young earth creationists is:

How do you reconcile a belief that the earth is less than 10,000 years old with Hubble's Law?

Edited by Calvin, : No reason given.


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Adminnemooseus
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Message 2 of 36 (832953)
05-14-2018 10:42 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Hubble's Law Disproves Young Earth Creationism thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Stile
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Posts: 3168
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 3 of 36 (832958)
05-15-2018 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Calvin
05-14-2018 10:00 PM


Calvin writes:

I take the position that the Universe is about 13.8 billion years old and the Earth is about 4.5 billion years old. In my opinion, one of the larger pieces of evidence against a young Earth, is Hubble's Law.

I agree with your conclusion.

But I don't understand how you got there.

Hubble's law states that galaxies outside of the Local Group are moving away from earth, and the speed at which they are moving away is proportional to the distance they are from Earth.

...

Meaning the speed at which a distant galaxy is moving in km/s is equivalent to its distance from earth in megaparsecs (mpc) multiplied by Hubble's Constant, which is about 71.

With this formula we can calculate the age of the earth.

I understand how Hubble's law allows us to calculate how fast other galaxies are moving away.
And that "how fast they are moving away" is proportional to how far they are from Earth.

But how do we get from that to calculating the age of the universe?

Are you just taking the calculation back to when "all the galaxies were in 1 spot together?"
And assuming that "when all galaxies were in 1 spot together" is the same as "the beginning of the universe?"

Or is it other logical connections you're making that I'm not understanding?

Edited by Stile, : Fixing quotes


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jar
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From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 4 of 36 (832959)
05-15-2018 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Stile
05-15-2018 9:50 AM


a car leaves Los Angeles ...
Would knowing the distance and the speed of light tell us how long light from the distant source had to travel for us to be able to see it?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Stile
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Posts: 3168
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 5 of 36 (832961)
05-15-2018 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
05-15-2018 10:00 AM


Re: a car leaves Los Angeles ...
jar writes:

Would knowing the distance and the speed of light tell us how long light from the distant source had to travel for us to be able to see it?

Yes.

This seems to be moving along the lines of these assumptions:

quote:
Are you just taking the calculation back to when "all the galaxies were in 1 spot together?"
And assuming that "when all galaxies were in 1 spot together" is the same as "the beginning of the universe?"

My question is whether or not these assumptions are being used to get to the conclusion.

It that's what was intended, then I understand how the conclusion was obtained
If they are not... then what logical connections are being made between the rate of expansion and the beginning of the universe?


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jar
Member
Posts: 30355
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 6 of 36 (832962)
05-15-2018 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Stile
05-15-2018 10:39 AM


Re: a car leaves Los Angeles ...
But if that was the assumption I can't see how that relates to the Young Earth Creationism. That assumption would hold true regardless of whether the Earth was 4.3 billion years old or 6000 years old.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Stile
Member
Posts: 3168
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 7 of 36 (832963)
05-15-2018 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
05-15-2018 10:51 AM


Re: a car leaves Los Angeles ...
jar writes:

But if that was the assumption I can't see how that relates to the Young Earth Creationism. That assumption would hold true regardless of whether the Earth was 4.3 billion years old or 6000 years old.

I agree.
Hence my questions.

I think there are other assumptions going on... either about physics, or about Young Earth Creationism (which flavour?)

In general, though... I don't really care.
As far as I'm personally concerned, this isn't a matter up for debate (at least not in this way... the 'debate point' here all seems fairly clear and understood to me personally).

I'm simply bored and attempting to engage/understand what the OP is, specifically, meaning.
I think some details the OP is taking for granted (assuming) have been left out of their message.

I can guess at them.
Or I can ask.

I asked.


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Modulous
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Posts: 7736
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 8 of 36 (832971)
05-15-2018 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Stile
05-15-2018 9:50 AM


Are you just taking the calculation back to when "all the galaxies were in 1 spot together?"
And assuming that "when all galaxies were in 1 spot together" is the same as "the beginning of the universe?"

Or is it other logical connections you're making that I'm not understanding?

https://www.e-education.psu.edu/astro801/content/l10_p5.html

quote:
You can actually calculate an estimate for the age of the Universe from Hubble's Law. The distance between two galaxies is D. The apparent velocity with which they are separating from each other is v. At some point, the galaxies were touching, and we can consider that time the moment of the Big Bang. If you take the separation between the two galaxies (D) and divide that by the apparent velocity (v), that will leave you with how long it took for the galaxies to reach their current separation.

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Stile
Member
Posts: 3168
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 9 of 36 (832972)
05-15-2018 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Modulous
05-15-2018 2:05 PM


Educated Atro801 People writes:

and we can consider that time the moment of the Big Bang.

Yeah.

That's the assumption.
(And rightly so, if you ask me).

But, a YEC's response, if I were to guess... would be that the Big Bang never happened. So they simply would not accept such an assumption.
And therefore, the tracking-the-calculation-back-to-when-galaxies-were-touching would be irrelevant.

Like taking the speed of someone on an escalator, tracking back their position and saying "10 minutes ago you were in the ground beneath this building!!"
To a YEC, it doesn't make sense to make a linear-ish assumption.


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NoNukes
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Posts: 10608
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 10 of 36 (832977)
05-15-2018 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Calvin
05-14-2018 10:00 PM


How do you reconcile a belief that the earth is less than 10,000 years old with Hubble's Law?

I think you can reconcile the two things with a version of last Thursdayism. The universe was created 6000 years ago with the stars and galaxies and space expanding at just about their current rates in just about their current positions, where just about means the minor adjustment for 6000 years.

In short, it is enough to question your extrapolation to the time when everything was in one big giant cosmic atom. Any creationist worth the time to debate over the issue would raise that issue.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


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14174dm
Member
Posts: 133
From: Cincinnati OH
Joined: 10-12-2015


Message 11 of 36 (832978)
05-15-2018 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Modulous
05-15-2018 2:05 PM


Probably stupid question
Actually have a couple questions

Does the Hubble constant only apply to the current motions? Would it change with time? How would you prove either constant constant or variable with age?

Why does velocity vary with distance? Is this where dark force/matter come in?


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Modulous
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Posts: 7736
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(2)
Message 12 of 36 (832979)
05-15-2018 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by 14174dm
05-15-2018 4:26 PM


Re: Probably stupid question
Does the Hubble constant only apply to the current motions?

Yes.

Would it change with time?

Yes. And no. Hubble's Parameter changes through time. Hubble's Constant is what it is at the moment - so it will always be what it is, given what time it is. Which does make 'constant' a bit of an odd term, but physics nomenclature is bit of a slave to tradition

How would you prove either constant constant or variable with age?

It's derived from General Relativity via the Friedmann equations. So that's the mathematical derivation / proof. Empirical proof comes from more and more precise measurements and clever inferences.

Why does velocity vary with distance? Is this where dark force/matter come in?

Good question and I'm not sure there is a definitive answer but the general gist goes:

There is something intrinsic to space that causes it to expand. So think of a unit sphere of space - it expands to twice the diameter. Now there is more space. And thus more 'expansion stuff'. From the centre of the sphere to edge there is twice as much stuff expanding as there was before so the edge is now being 'pushed' away at a greater rate than stuff only one unit away from the centre. The rate 'per unit' of space stays the same, but the more units of space there between point A and point B, the more space is expanding so it accumulates over distance.

That's why more distance = faster expansion between those two points.

The fact that the equation comes out the way it does, and the observations leads us to the conclusion that there is something intrinsic to space that causes the expansion. What that intrinsic something is is not completely understood I believe, but yes - a constant energy density to space - ala a cosmological constant with Dark Energy being the culprit of this is a commonly accepted understanding, though there are some weird quantum field ideas that I don't understand that have been proposed too.


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Modulous
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Posts: 7736
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
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(2)
Message 13 of 36 (832980)
05-15-2018 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Stile
05-15-2018 2:48 PM


Yeah.

That's the assumption.
(And rightly so, if you ask me).

But, a YEC's response, if I were to guess... would be that the Big Bang never happened. So they simply would not accept such an assumption.

Agreed - as far as disproving YEC it could even be viewed as begging the question: 'Given the Big Bang - the universe isn't young'.


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Calvin
Junior Member
Posts: 9
From: California
Joined: 05-14-2018


Message 14 of 36 (832986)
05-15-2018 5:47 PM


Stile writes:

But, a YEC's response, if I were to guess... would be that the Big Bang never happened. So they simply would not accept such an assumption.
And therefore, the tracking-the-calculation-back-to-when-galaxies-were-touching would be irrelevant.

Like taking the speed of someone on an escalator, tracking back their position and saying "10 minutes ago you were in the ground beneath this building!!"
To a YEC, it doesn't make sense to make a linear-ish assumption.

The conversation would probably move to trying to prove the big bang then, which I think there is plenty of evidence for.

NoNukes writes:

I think you can reconcile the two things with a version of last Thursdayism. The universe was created 6000 years ago with the stars and galaxies and space expanding at just about their current rates in just about their current positions, where just about means the minor adjustment for 6000 years.

Well, there's a reason last Thursdayism isn't scientificaly accepted. While it's possible, it's also a positive claim that requires the last Thursdayist to meet their burden of proof.

I see the same thing with a univerese "created old" its a positive claim that requires proof and without that, I see no reason to believe it.


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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10608
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 15 of 36 (832987)
05-15-2018 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Calvin
05-15-2018 5:47 PM


Well, there's a reason last Thursdayism isn't scientificaly accepted. While it's possible, it's also a positive claim that requires the last Thursdayist to meet their burden of proof.

Actually, for the purposes of this discussion, it is you who are claiming that a single fact disproves creationism, so it is up to you to provide a reason for dismissing the Creatonist claims.

On the other hand, if, as is actually the case, other evidence beyond the Hubble constant is available, then you would have a much better argument.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Calvin, posted 05-15-2018 5:47 PM Calvin has not yet responded

    
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