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Author Topic:   Christian principles in relation to government
Faith
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Posts: 28587
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 1 of 81 (833821)
05-27-2018 4:08 AM


Just ran across this article, This Is Not of God’: When Anti-Trump Evangelicals Confront Their Brethren , about some evangelicals who call themselves Red Letter Christians who are protesting Trump's presidency as contrary to the spirit of Christ. One of their leaders is a Shane Claiborne who keeps wanting to confront the pro-Trump evangelicals at Liberty University in Virginia but keeps getting rebuffed.

Red Letter Christians refers to the fact that some Bibles put Jesus' directly quoted words in red, so this group consider themselves to be representing Jesus against other Christians they regard as not living as Christians. They emphasize work among the poor, missions and so on. Claiborne calls the pro-Trump evangelicals "Toxic Christians" who, in the words of the author of the article, endorse "Mr. Trump’s program of deporting immigrants, fanning racial tension and passing a tax deal benefiting the rich."

This is likely to be a very incendiary subject unfortunately so I'm hesitating about posting it at all. I'll probably be the only one on the pro-Trump side, and GDR along with everybody else will side with the Red Letter people as being the true Christians.

But I'll present a brief defense of my view here. As usual I see the problem as a confusion between what Jesus calls us as individuals to do, which the Red Letter people represent in a general way, while the pro-Trump people operate on the level of government and law in this fallen world, supporting programs that we think best serve a nation in this fallen context. Jesus gave guidelines for individuals, spoke of us as citizens of another country, made a distinction between what is owed to Caesar or the governments of this world, and what is owed to God. He did not in any way condemn Christians who serve in a governmental capacity, such as the Roman Centurions who believed and converted in His time. They weren't asked to give up their jobs and they weren't asked to turn the other cheek or go the extra mile in their capacity as servants of Caesar, they were there to keep order and there is no hint that their work was considered to be in any way contradictory with their faith in Christ.

Nations must operate by law, but Jesus addresses individuals. His influence nevertheless has influenced law in a merciful direction over time, but governments can't turn the other check, only individuals can, and if governments did it they would be betraying their main purpose which is the protection and organization of the people. Jesus didn't come to abolish the Law of God, He came to fulfill it, and nations must operate by Law.

To address this specific topic, I have a problem with how it's all characterized in the first place, as "Trump’s program of deporting immigrants, fanning racial tension and passing a tax deal benefiting the rich."

First note the usual Liberal spin on the term "immigrants." Trump's administration is not "deporting IMMIGRANTS, but ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. Leaving out that term "illegal" is a big fat red flag. As he said recently, a nation can't be a nation without borders, but the left wants to destroy borders and destroy nations as a result, particularly the United States. Trump wants legal orderly immigration, and that's his job as the servant of the people of the nation. The anarchy promoted by the opposition can't be defended as anything Jesus would support.

Also I've heard that some of the more unfair laws concerning deportation were not Trump's doing but actually done by the Democrats, laws that separate parents from children for instance, and Trump recently asked that those laws be rescinded.

All the "fanning of racial tension" I've seen originates on the Left and does not come from Trump.

And taxes benefitting the rich are for the purpose of increasing the prosperity of the nation. We can argue about whether or not it's the best policy but that's it's purpose, not to benefit the rich at the expense of the poor as the Left always spins it, but to benefit the whole country which also benefits the poor. It's the policies of free enterprise that made America the richest nation on earth. We won't stay rich if all we do is give it away. You have to make money in order to have money to use for the sake of the poor.

So that's a sketch of this hot topic. I hope it doesn't give me a heart attack.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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 Message 6 by Phat, posted 05-27-2018 11:10 AM Faith has responded
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 05-27-2018 3:12 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 24 by GDR, posted 05-28-2018 12:22 AM Faith has responded
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Adminnemooseus
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Message 2 of 81 (833823)
05-27-2018 4:45 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the The role of Christians in government thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
jar
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Posts: 30430
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


(4)
Message 3 of 81 (833829)
05-27-2018 7:01 AM


So many basic fantasies in the OP.
It's a great subject and I think an important one but perhaps couched poorly.

Christianity has always been a political force as well as a theological path.

There is no such thing as a True Christian and never has been; never will be. The Pope and the Evangelical Fundamentalist are both equally Christians.

Jesus was never a Christian; he was born, lived and died a Jew.

But then the OP falls into a whole series of absolutely silly ass assertions that are total misrepresentations of reality.

Faith writes:

As he said recently, a nation can't be a nation without borders, but the left wants to destroy borders and destroy nations as a result, particularly the United States.

That is a classic example of misrepresentation as well as the basic dishonesty that is the core foundation of Donald Trump. No one on either side of the political spectrum wants to destroy borders or nations. Nor is there any evidence that that is the case.

Faith writes:

And taxes benefitting the rich are for the purpose of increasing the prosperity of the nation.

And there is another utter absurdity that cannot be supported by reason, logic or reality. The concept of the prosperity of the nation is another of those meaningless bumper sticker disconnected from reality dogmatic slogan so beloved by many. It is irrelevant whether or not the nation is prosperous; what is relevant is whether or not the individuals living in the nation have food, clothing, shelter, safety, health care.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
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 Message 25 by Phat, posted 05-28-2018 10:01 AM jar has responded

  
NoNukes
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Posts: 10702
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 4 of 81 (833831)
05-27-2018 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
05-27-2018 4:08 AM


ust ran across this article, This Is Not of God’: When Anti-Trump Evangelicals Confront Their Brethren , about some evangelicals who call themselves Red Letter Christians who are protesting Trump's presidency as contrary to the spirit of Christ.

Your idea that Christianity applied only to individuals rather and nations is not something I agree with, and over the years, the Biblical support for you being wrong has been pointed out to you on occasion. But even if we granted you that, a pretty significant objection to Trump revolves around his own personal behavior. There is zero excuse for political leaders acting like that regardless of the supposed good they do.

All the "fanning of racial tension" I've seen originates on the Left and does not come from Trump

And this statement is just delusional. I am not going to bother with it other than to say that it is the height of wing nuttery to think that your side is pure and that anything to the left of that is akin to being a Nazi. Yet we know that is close to the view you hold.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 4142
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 5 of 81 (833833)
05-27-2018 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
05-27-2018 4:08 AM


And taxes benefiting the rich are for the purpose of increasing the prosperity of the nation.

Republicans say they are for the purpose of increasing the prosperity of the nation. Of course, politicians never lie.

The facts are that no tax cut since WWII has paid for itself, and no tax cut directly benefiting almost exclusively the rich has increased the prosperity of the nation.

Every prediction liberals made about the effect of Trump's tax cuts has come true. Companies are using them to buy back massive amounts of stock, benefiting the top brass only. Companies are not using them to pay large dividends to their stockholders... how much dividend-paying stock do you own? Companies are not using them to create jobs at any increased rate. Rich people are not job creators except insofar as they affect companies.

Here's the rate of job creation from 2008 to 2018. Trump has had no effect:

How Is Big Business Using the Trump Tax Cut? What We Know
Tax cut savings flow to company stockholders, trickle to hourly workers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 05-27-2018 4:08 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10819
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 6 of 81 (833836)
05-27-2018 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
05-27-2018 4:08 AM


Lets frame this topic
Faith writes:

I'll present a brief defense of my view here. As usual I see the problem as a confusion between what Jesus calls us as individuals to do, which the Red Letter people represent in a general way, while the pro-Trump people operate on the level of government and law in this fallen world, supporting programs that we think best serve a nation in this fallen context. Jesus gave guidelines for individuals, spoke of us as citizens of another country, made a distinction between what is owed to Caesar or the governments of this world, and what is owed to God. He did not in any way condemn Christians who serve in a governmental capacity, such as the Roman Centurions who believed and converted in His time. They weren't asked to give up their jobs and they weren't asked to turn the other cheek or go the extra mile in their capacity as servants of Caesar, they were there to keep order and there is no hint that their work was considered to be in any way contradictory with their faith in Christ.

Nations must operate by law, but Jesus addresses individuals. His influence nevertheless has influenced law in a merciful direction over time, but governments can't turn the other cheek, only individuals can, and if governments did it they would be betraying their main purpose which is the protection and organization of the people. Jesus didn't come to abolish the Law of God, He came to fulfill it, and nations must operate by Law.

Hi, Faith. Though I am not pro Trump, I do not see him as quite the antichrist that I used to see him as, and still, don't understand why the liberals are any more possessed than the conservatives. the Bible mentions that none are righteous. Politics is basically different philosophies and ideologies and I don't see Christianity as being strictly right wing nor socialist...though a case could be made for either in the Bible.

Some questions:
1) What do you personally see as Trumps greatest contributions towards protecting the United Staes from globalism? Is globalism inevitable eventually?(Revelation speaks of a one world government)
2) What doctrines and/or beliefs of the Left challenge Christianity?

3) Is it really true that America is a Christian Nation or are we more secular and (increasingly) all-inclusive? Pluralist, if you will.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 05-27-2018 4:08 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 05-27-2018 11:14 AM Phat has responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 30430
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 7 of 81 (833837)
05-27-2018 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
05-27-2018 11:10 AM


Re: Lets frame this topic
Phat writes:

1) What do you personally see as Trumps greatest contributions towards protecting the United Staes from globalism? Is globalism inevitable eventually?(Revelation speaks of a one world government)

What is Globalism?

Phat writes:

2) What doctrines and/or beliefs of the Left challenge Christianity?

HUH? Christians cannot be liberals? Wasn't there someone who said we should feed the hungry, clothe the naked, protect the weak, comfort the sorrowful, heal the sick ...?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Phat
Member
Posts: 10819
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 8 of 81 (833838)
05-27-2018 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
05-27-2018 7:01 AM


Re: So many basic fantasies in the OP.
There is no such thing as a True Christian and never has been; never will be. The Pope and the Evangelical Fundamentalist are both equally Christians.
based on that logic, anyone throwing a frisbee or playing softball on the weekend qualifies as an athlete simply because they say they are. The fact is that an athlete must train and discipline themselves to earn the title. Same with Christians. The controversy is as to whether one can simply claim the title or whether they must actually earn it.

You have read the Bible, so that scores points, but you also publically have no prayer life apart from ritual, and no discipline apart from doing for the least of these, which also scores points. That and you belong to a club and thus have the credentials.

My point is that there are many who claim the title of Christian (as did Adolph Hitler) but the evidence shows that they are undisciplined, do not pray or rarely acknowledge God, and use the title to further their own agenda.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

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 Message 3 by jar, posted 05-27-2018 7:01 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10819
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 9 of 81 (833840)
05-27-2018 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
05-27-2018 11:14 AM


Re: Lets frame this topic
I could also ask what doctrines and/or beliefs of the Right challenge Christianity.

A case could be better made from the bible supporting liberal rather than conservative values, though Faith may disagree.

Globalism, off the cuff, is when all nation/states share the same power and interest and there is no dominant nation(s) that rule over the rest. People in the US fear it because if we had to share, on a global scale we would lose individual power and money.

The official definition is the operation or planning of economic and foreign policy on a global basis.

Also Trump is more of a nationalist, IIRC.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 05-27-2018 11:14 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 05-27-2018 11:40 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30430
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 10 of 81 (833841)
05-27-2018 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
05-27-2018 11:16 AM


Re: So many basic fantasies in the OP.
Phat writes:

based on that logic, anyone throwing a frisbee or playing softball on the weekend qualifies as an athlete simply because they say they are. The fact is that an athlete must train and discipline themselves to earn the title. Same with Christians. The controversy is as to whether one can simply claim the title or whether they must actually earn it.

Bullshit Phat, total Bullshit.

It is not a matter of claiming a title in my case although that is the norm in the Christian Cult of Ignorance. When you are officially received and enrolled into a recognized chapter of a recognized organization and maintained on the membership roles, you are not simply declaring oneself to earn the title.

That ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is what the Christian Cult of Ignorance does. They proclaim themselves as Christians.

Phat writes:

You have read the Bible, so that scores points, but you also publically have no prayer life apart from ritual, and no discipline apart from doing for the least of these, which also scores points. That and you belong to a club and thus have the credentials.

Too funny Phat.

quote:
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Prayer is not something that is said or proclaimed but rather lived.

Phat writes:

My point is that there are many who claim the title of Christian (as did Adolph Hitler) but the evidence shows that they are undisciplined, do not pray or rarely acknowledge God, and use the title to further their own agenda.

But Hitler WAS a Christian.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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JonF
Member
Posts: 4142
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 11 of 81 (833842)
05-27-2018 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
05-27-2018 11:14 AM


Re: Lets frame this topic
1) What do you personally see as Trumps greatest contributions towards protecting the United Staes from globalism? Is globalism inevitable eventually?(Revelation speaks of a one world government)

What is Globalism?

To many, its Jooz.
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jar
Member
Posts: 30430
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 12 of 81 (833843)
05-27-2018 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
05-27-2018 11:21 AM


Re: Lets frame this topic
Phat writes:

Also Trump is more of a nationalist, IIRC.

Trump is more a Fascist.

Are you really totally blind to what happens here in the US?

quote:
Donald Trump now says he wants to save jobs in China. Today, the president tweeted - President Xi of China and I are working together to give massive Chinese phone company ZTE a way to get back into business fast. President Trump goes on to tweet - too many jobs in China lost. Commerce Department has been instructed to get it done.

source
Trump Administration had just placed sanctions on ZTE because ZTE had been making illegal shipments to Iran and North Korea. Then Trump turns around and lifts those sanctions to save Chinese jobs.

Reality Phat.

Now once again. What is globalism?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Faith
Member
Posts: 28587
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 13 of 81 (833844)
05-27-2018 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by JonF
05-27-2018 9:36 AM


Let's keep the topic general
Republicans say they are for the purpose of increasing the prosperity of the nation. Of course, politicians never lie.

The facts are that no tax cut since WWII has paid for itself, and no tax cut directly benefiting almost exclusively the rich has increased the prosperity of the nation.

Let's not move too rapidly from the general to the specific. For one thing I don't keep up with economics either in general OR specific, but I know there is plenty of conservative economic theory that supports Trump's thinking. Whether it is being applied rightly or not, or whether it seems to be working in a specific situation or not, aren't really topics to discuss on this thread, the Trump Presidency thread is more for that discussion I would think. For this thread I'd just like to keep it on the table that there is a conservative point of view that supports Trump's aims economically and otherwise and that's what we all voted for. It contrasts with the complaint made by the "Red Letter" people who are really objecting to his conservative policies which are shared by the other half of the country from the one they represent. In other words it's not right to protest Trump himself on giving the rich a tax break, or illegal immigration either; it's overall conservative policy.

It ought to be clear enough as a general statement that taxing the rich so high they take their businesses to other countries doesn't benefit the nation, and it ought to be common sense that having policies that are top-heavy on the side of supporting welfare programs without an increase in sources of wealth doesn't benefit the nation either.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Capt Stormfield
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Posts: 324
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 14 of 81 (833846)
05-27-2018 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
05-27-2018 12:23 PM


Re: Let's keep the topic general
For one thing I don't keep up with economics either in general OR specific, but I know there is plenty of conservative economic theory that...

I must say, the efficiency of contradicting yourself within the confines of one sentence is a great idea.

Real time saver.

Kudos.


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JonF
Member
Posts: 4142
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 15 of 81 (833848)
05-27-2018 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
05-27-2018 12:23 PM


Re: Let's keep the topic general
I know there is plenty of conservative economic theory that supports Trump's thinking

There's 100% of real-world results that do not support Trump's thinking.

And as the articles I posted bear out, this one is no different.

It ought to be clear enough as a general statement that taxing the rich so high they take their businesses to other countries doesn't benefit the nation, and it ought to be common sense that policies that are top-heavy on the side of supporting welfare programs without an increase in sources of wealth doesn't benefit the nation either.

A very simplistic view. No, it's not obvious and history refutes you. Clinton raised taxes. What was the economy like? The taxes on the rich were over 90% in the 1950s. How did the economy do then?

This is really a very complex question with lots of disagreement. But one thing is clear: Trump's tax cuts are a windfall for the rich and will have almost no effect on the middle class and the poor.

It appears that any benefit to the middle class will be canceled by higher gas prices.


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