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Author Topic:   Solving the Opioid Crisis One Person at a Time
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2184
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(2)
Message 1 of 10 (835440)
06-23-2018 2:15 PM


Yesterday, I think I saved a life and possibly two lives.

Whenever I need help with odd jobs, particularly lawn maintenance, I call on this couple who are honest hard working salt of the earth characters. While conversing with them while helping to build a back gate, I mentioned that they were far better than my previous guy who stole my tramadol which was proscribed to me for pain after a tooth removal. Fortunately for me I was 4 days in before it was stolen, most of the pain was gone, and FDR repealed prohibition in 1933.

Turns out my helpers were struggling with various addictions to opioids, the latest being an addiction to tramadol. Now, while I was taking tramadol, I immediately associated the same feeling with Kratom as they are both mu-opioid agonists, so an addiction to tramadol was almost beyond my comprehension.

I have some default behaviors among which are when a person is in distress, first is to shut up and listen to their story and second is to help them with whatever is the cause of their distress if at all possible.

After hearing their story of woe which deeply affected me (I lost my wife of 22 years largely due to her own opioid addiction) I was reminded that I had a half kilo of Maeng Da (aka - pimp grade) Kratom from MMMSpeciosa out of Austin.

I had little use for it at the time so i gave it to her and her husband. Well the next day she returned informing me that she was relieved of her hip pain which had lasted for two weeks and any craving for tramadol was completely gone.

My daughter refers to me as a walking Erowid and in that guise I suppose I should inform all of my audience about the basics as I did my suffering associates:

The potential for addiction, while far milder than any other opioid, does exist and has been documented. I recommend not dosing any more often than four days apart.

Raw Kratom is very bitter and can induce nausea (it is not in the same ballpark as raw Peyote or the king of vomit, aka Ayhuasca), I suggest Cannabis and ginger tea as counteractants.

Forget anything you ever heard about dieting. Kratom means absolutely no hunger whatsoever for 12 hours.

For full effect one should take Kratom on an empty stomach, I recommend at least 2 hours after eating.

One effect of Kratom is you get speeded up a bit but it is far from crystal meth. As a member of the coffee family, Kratom is like a pot of coffee or several Red Bull's.

Perhaps the strangest effect of Kratom is at the normal dose of 3-5 grams there is absolutely no impairment whatsoever despite that general feeling of well-being and mild euphoria. I would not drink much and drive for obvious reasons, nor do I feel at all comfortable with driving under the influence of marijuana, so that don't happen. Kratom on the other hand - not a consideration.

Should you (which In seriously doubt considering what this place is) or anyone you know (far more likely) be suffering from opioid addiction, your first go-to wonder plant is cannabis, the plant that is the opposite of revenge because unlike the emotion of revenge which as my father said, is the emotion that promises the most and delivers the least, Trinidad's finest promises the least and delivers the most.

I strongly support using cannabis as the first line of defense against opioid addiction due to its extremely low potential for abuse. That being said there is a backup in the case of more serious conditions, the name of this backup is Kratom. Both are among the greatest of God's blessings if used in moderation as Aristotle advised.

I do not know if this advice is as of much use to our friends in other nations since they actually value their citizens {rant} unlike the pure evil Republicans which are flat out traitors to any concept of intelligence, decency, or humanity itself. I assure you that both my daughter and myself are doing everything in our power to permanently rid this planet of this bacterial infection. The abuse all of us within the borders of the USA endure is the primary cause of the opiod crisis in the USA.

I will be retired within 60 days and I will be leaving this redneck hellhole forever because I need the regeneration New Mexico provides. {/rant}

That being said I live on accordance with what Jesus said in the Bible. it is my commission to feed the hungry, lift people out of poverty,and of course heal the sick. Opioid addiction is absolutely an illness to be cured and should never be considered within the purview of the criminal justice system.

I said my piece. Now I would like to hear from our tremendously intelligent members about any other possible ways to alleviate the pain of opioid addiction. As people within the borders of the USA we are subjected to in this now abusive environment we all live in thanks to the demented Donald Trump and the cowardly and traitorous Republican Party. Everyone here hurts and opioids are too easily used as a temporary solution. Unfortunately, such a behavior eventually comes at the cost of losing your soul.

Please help in any way you can, too many are suffering too much.

{ABE} For the moment Kratom is legal in the USA except in the following: Arkansas (which my grandfather left for Arizona in 1913 and eventually California in 1922 - Thank you so much grandad), The worst state in the USA - Alabama - home of Beelzebub aka Jeff Sessions, Tennessee - common', people it is beautiful, please honor God by doing God's work, Kentucky - home of the Ark Museum which pretty much sums up that situation, Indiana - UGLY, and Wisconsin - please get rid of your mouth breathing governor as he makes your state appear as stupid as he looks).{ABE}

/

My bad, coffee house of course.

Edited by anglagard, : Incompleteness

Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.

Edited by anglagard, : It's bad enough to misspell in the body, but misspelling the subject is unforgivable, oh and ABE.

Edited by anglagard, : Had the Jacobin slash reversed

Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Percy, posted 06-25-2018 8:44 AM anglagard has responded
 Message 5 by Coragyps, posted 07-01-2018 4:58 PM anglagard has not yet responded

    
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Message 2 of 10 (835565)
06-25-2018 7:20 AM


Thread Moved from Suggestions and Questions Forum
Thread moved here from the Suggestions and Questions forum.
    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17875
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 3 of 10 (835567)
06-25-2018 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by anglagard
06-23-2018 2:15 PM


I think everyone responds differently to drugs. That's how I explain to myself my difficultly in comprehending the opioid epidemic, because I've taken some of these drugs and their addictive qualities just aren't apparent to me. Since I can't offer anything else helpful I'll just list how I respond to common drugs. I've only taken over the counter or prescribed drugs or drugs administered in hospitals. I'm apparently not vulnerable to the placebo effect.

  • Tylenol (Acetaminophen): Doesn't do anything. Aches, pains, headaches, it does nothing.
  • Aspirin: Wonderful for headaches - works every time - but I have to double the normal dose
  • Ibuprofen: Sort of okay for inflammation, not too effective
  • Naproxen (Alleve): Excellent for headaches and inflammation - but I have to double the normal dose
  • Gabapentin: No effect on pain that I can tell.
  • Alcohol: In social settings I enjoy it, privately it seems weird.
  • Hydrocodone: Doesn't work for me.
  • Oxycodone: Sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. Occasionally it provides a feeling of mild euphoria.
  • Percocet (Oxycodone with acetaminophen): Sometimes alleviates tooth pain, sometimes not. Occasionally it provides a feeling of mild euphoria.
  • Zolpidem (Ambien): For sleep disorder. Works every time, am alert quickly after effects wear off.
  • Propofol (for sedation in hospitals): I promptly fall asleep, am alert quickly after effects wear off
  • Morphine: Apparently not used much anymore, but I had it during a hospital stay in the 1970's and it was wonderful. High euphoria.

It bothers me that for pain there is aspirin or Tylenol at the low end of the pain alleviation spectrum, opioids at the other, and nothing in between. Seems like there should be something in the middle ground, but there isn't.

This is actually a significant problem, though not the topic of this thread. If you have hip replacement surgery they prescribe Tylenol for pain after release from the hospital. When it's explained that Tylenol doesn't work for you and can you take aspirin, the answer is no because aspirin is also a blood thinner, which is a no-no (another way of saying highly contraindicated) after surgery that can cause blood clots since you're already on the blood thinner Coumadin, so adding aspirin would be way overkill since it could cause bleeding in the surgical area. They probably use Eliquis instead of Coumadin these days, but aspirin is still contraindicated.

So if you can't take aspirin for post surgical pain, and if Tylenol doesn't work for you, then the only alternatives are opioids, and doctors these days are really resistant to prescribing opioids. You tell them Tylenol doesn't work for you and they start looking at you real suspiciously. But, and here's where the placebo effect enters the story, Tylenol doesn't work for most people. Studies have revealed that Tylenol is in general far less effective for pain than advertised, and it only actually works on about 30% of the population.

Many may have a hard time believing this, that the pain drug they've been taking since childhood is actually a fraud, and a dangerous one at that, since Tylenol overdoses, particularly among children, is a common problem that hospitals have to deal with all the time. The little help Tylenol provides for pain cannot be justified against it's potential for damage to the liver, up to and including requiring liver transplants. Here's the opening paragraph from The Limits of Tylenol for Pain Relief published in the New York Times a few years ago:

quote:
Acetaminophen (Tylenol) is widely recommended for the relief of back pain and the pain of knee and hip arthritis. But a systematic review of randomized trials has found that it works no better than a placebo.

If you think Tylenol helps your pain it's likely just the placebo effect at work. Tylenol is a big scam. I'm guessing that Kratom as a semi-opioid isn't a reasonable alternative.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by anglagard, posted 06-23-2018 2:15 PM anglagard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by anglagard, posted 07-01-2018 3:16 PM Percy has responded
 Message 6 by anglagard, posted 07-01-2018 7:45 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2184
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 4 of 10 (835810)
07-01-2018 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Percy
06-25-2018 8:44 AM


Trifecta
Percy writes:

If you think Tylenol helps your pain it's likely just the placebo effect at work. Tylenol is a big scam. I'm guessing that Kratom as a semi-opioid isn't a reasonable alternative.

I never take tylenol because I drink alcohol, that is a possibly dangerous mix. If I get a toothache, I take aspirin because it works for me.

Well, here is a follow up to my first post. Turns out my worker's mother was also a tramadol addict. All have been tramadol free since I gave them kratom.

I'm guessing that Kratom as a semi-opioid isn't a reasonable alternative

Sorry, I think your guess is wrong. I have first hand experience with kratom myself and I know what it does to me. I also have first hand experience with these opioids: heroin, morphine, hydrocodone, percocet, percodan, dilaudid, codiene, tramadol, and raw opium. For a person like me, heroin is extremely dangerous because it puts me in total bliss, which means the potential for addiction is far too great for me to even touch the stuff unless my condition is terminal. As for the rest I never do more than three days in a row because I am not a big fan of constipation. Except for the heroin, dilaudid, and opium, it was all prescribed by doctors or, in the case of morphine, used in that tonsillectomy in the 60's

Rarely use kratom myself as I have an alternative that tastes better (usually I smoke it though) and have never been addicted to any opioid.

I wish there was more research on both cannabis and kratom so the evidence is more than anecdotal. However, there are thousands of personal stories of people getting off a serious opioid addiction by using kratom, should one care to do the research.

Like I said, start with Colorado's finest first as the potential for addiction is minimal and solely psychological. If that is not enough, kratom is the logical next step. Neither one on it's own has ever been shown to result in a single death in thousands of years. Meanwhile, crap laced with fentenyl kills by the tens of thousands every year in this nation alone.

Rather than state kratom is, in you guess, ineffective or possibly simply trading one dangerous addiction for another, I recommend first hand knowledge of it's effects. Do it on an empty stomach, and unless you have 5 grams worth of empty caps on hand, brew some ginger tea. Not as bad as raw peyote, or ayhuasca, which is the very taste of vomit, but still very bitter. Oh, and purchase from a reliable source, not a gas station. Who knows what is in that trash.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Percy, posted 06-25-2018 8:44 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Percy, posted 07-02-2018 7:09 AM anglagard has not yet responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5352
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 5 of 10 (835817)
07-01-2018 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by anglagard
06-23-2018 2:15 PM


Something that works, and is still legal in Texas??!! Tell me Im dreaming!!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by anglagard, posted 06-23-2018 2:15 PM anglagard has not yet responded

    
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2184
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 6 of 10 (835820)
07-01-2018 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Percy
06-25-2018 8:44 AM


Historic Factoid
Kratom was made illegal in Thailand in 1943 during the Japanese occupation.

Why? Because it interfered with opium trade profits.

Still have doubts?


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Percy, posted 06-25-2018 8:44 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17875
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 7 of 10 (835830)
07-02-2018 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by anglagard
07-01-2018 3:16 PM


Re: Trifecta
anglagard writes:

percy writes:

I'm guessing that kratom as a semi-opioid isn't a reasonable alternative.

Sorry, I think your guess is wrong. I have first hand experience with kratom myself and I know what it does to me.
...
Rather than state kratom is, in your guess, ineffective or possibly simply trading one dangerous addiction for another,...

I wasn't trying to say anything about the effectiveness of kratom. I was guessing that because kratom is a semi-opioid while Tylenol is not that it isn't a reasonable alternative.

In my message I was mainly just trying to express my frustration that there is no pain relief medication available between asperin/acetaminophen/etc. on the one hand and opioids on the other. Another of my frustrations is the increasing criminalization of deaths resulting from helping people buy or use drugs when they're just fellow addicts. Addiction is a tragedy requiring help, not a crime requiring punishment.

Skimming through the Wikipedia article I find it interesting that The United States Drug Enforcement Administration states that "There is no legitimate medical use for kratom" while at the same time no clinical trials have been conducted in the United States. I guess they must be psychic.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by anglagard, posted 07-01-2018 3:16 PM anglagard has not yet responded

    
Porosity
Member (Idle past 44 days)
Posts: 158
From: MT, USA
Joined: 06-15-2013


Message 8 of 10 (835857)
07-02-2018 8:55 PM


About five years ago I hurt my back and opioids just didn't work for me, they make me nauseous and I don't like how they make me feel. I ended going through several radiofrequency ablation procedures and physical therapy, it helped but I still had pain.

This went on for several years till my doctor told me about a new pain management treatment called mindfulness. It was a year long journey into my mind and the power I have over my body. I am now free of pain and in complete control over pain, mindfulness has changed my life forever.

I urge anyone dealing with chronic pain to at least look into mindfulness to manage pain. I can tell you first hand it works and not just for pain, it can help with other physiological problems as well.

If anyone has any questions about the provider I used please feel free to PM me.

Edited by Porosity, : No reason given.


    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 9 of 10 (835870)
07-03-2018 3:19 AM


I am not sure what to make of the advice here. I appreciate the stories, but the discussion sounds too much like that same stuff that I dumped all over Faith for starting.

Are anecdotes really data?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by anglagard, posted 07-06-2018 4:45 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2184
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 10 of 10 (836000)
07-06-2018 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by NoNukes
07-03-2018 3:19 AM


I Agree But Hard Data is Not There
NoNukes writes:

I am not sure what to make of the advice here. I appreciate the stories, but the discussion sounds too much like that same stuff that I dumped all over Faith for starting.

When the science is not allowed, the humanities are all we have left.

Are anecdotes really data?

Short answer: No
Longer answer: There is obviously data to back up some medical use for cannabis, not any for kratom that I know of, in contrast. However, there is the verdict of history to consider in this calculation, and history is one of the humanities.

Edited by anglagard, : Respect.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by NoNukes, posted 07-03-2018 3:19 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
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