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Author Topic:   Christianity... Destiny
Porkncheese
Member (Idle past 268 days)
Posts: 198
From: Australia
Joined: 08-25-2017


Message 1 of 53 (843093)
11-10-2018 11:10 AM


I tried a search for this but not much came up.
I recently asked about the original sin and sin in general. I got some replies from Phat and Faith and some others that were good. Those explanations helped me understand it better.
So I'm hoping to get some perspective on destiny.
God knows what's going to happen to me tomorrow. He knows when your going to sin, when you'll die, he knows the future. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's how I remember it.
God tells Moses basically everything about his future. Very detailed as I remember.
A good example is when Judas turns Jesus over to the Roman cops for money and later hangs himself out of guilt. Jesus knew he was going to do that all along.
He betrays Jesus and commits suicide. That equals hell for Judas.
But poor Judas didn't even have a choice did he?
Adam and Eve. God knew they were going to eat the apple. Doesn't that make the original sin kind of pointless?
If our lives are already pre determined then what's the point of going through the motions?
What drives people to study like I am and try follow a career? Was i already wired up to do this?
Their some tough questions I think but I'll add another topic.
Were there is good there is evil. Satan. Lcifer. Are they the same entity?
Where is Satan? How much power has he got? How is he influencing earth and the people?
Is he responsible for these stupid left wing students with their safe spaces and cry closets?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 11-10-2018 11:56 AM Porkncheese has replied
 Message 17 by GDR, posted 11-16-2018 7:50 PM Porkncheese has not replied
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 11-18-2018 7:22 AM Porkncheese has not replied

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 53 (843094)
11-10-2018 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Porkncheese
11-10-2018 11:10 AM


Focus On One Topic
You have a lot of questions in this one topic starter and have not really indicated which one you wish to primarily focus on.
You can always bring the secondary questions up later in the topic if you wish to address them, but which one do you want to start out with?
Before you answer---and before I promote anything, you may consider asking questions in this related topic:
Free will vs Omniscience
This one gets deep! I'm rereading it now!
Let me know if you wish to still open a topic, but focus it on one main idea. Otherwise, feel free to post a reply in the topic that I linked you to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Porkncheese, posted 11-10-2018 11:10 AM Porkncheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Porkncheese, posted 11-12-2018 7:35 AM AdminPhat has replied

  
Porkncheese
Member (Idle past 268 days)
Posts: 198
From: Australia
Joined: 08-25-2017


Message 3 of 53 (843095)
11-12-2018 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
11-10-2018 11:56 AM


Re: Focus On One Topic
Sorry my original thought was on free will and destiny.
That link is great. It has the various opinions I was looking for.
I've been thinking a lot recently about morality.
It would be great if u could suggest some threads that cover this.
Cheers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 11-10-2018 11:56 AM AdminPhat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AdminPhat, posted 11-12-2018 9:58 AM Porkncheese has replied

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 53 (843096)
11-12-2018 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Porkncheese
11-12-2018 7:35 AM


Re: Focus On One Topic
I think I have one for you. One of my favorite conversationalists (and foils) is our member, Ringo. He always manages to cleverly yet accurately express a contrarian yet very logical argument that he uses in this thread to argue with a fundamentalist member, Dawn Bertot. Follow the conversation here:
EvC Forum: Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
Also check out
Morality without god
Maximising Freedom Is The Goal Of Morality

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Porkncheese, posted 11-12-2018 7:35 AM Porkncheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Porkncheese, posted 11-13-2018 7:29 AM AdminPhat has replied

  
Porkncheese
Member (Idle past 268 days)
Posts: 198
From: Australia
Joined: 08-25-2017


Message 5 of 53 (843097)
11-13-2018 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by AdminPhat
11-12-2018 9:58 AM


Re: Focus On One Topic
Interesting but it is all religion vs science and my agnostic questions never seem to get answered. I'm not after debate. Just basically asking people to try change my mind or try tip the scales.
I recently asked for a theological explanations of original sin, general sin, Jesus and destiny
And now to both atheists and theists I will ask them to observe and examine the social climate we are in today.
It might not be for a while cos im busy atm but I'll get something down and run it through here first.
Also fill me in with references and visuals cos I want to use some for this next topic without being screwed around. People would demand I show references then reject them. They would use youtube clips and then reject my stuff cos it was "off the internet" or label me "creationist" which only made the atheist argument look shallow. Wat can I use and wat can't I use?
Edited by Porkncheese, : Tip the scales
Edited by Porkncheese, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by AdminPhat, posted 11-12-2018 9:58 AM AdminPhat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by AdminPhat, posted 11-13-2018 10:07 AM Porkncheese has not replied
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 11-13-2018 10:28 AM Porkncheese has not replied
 Message 10 by Stile, posted 11-15-2018 12:09 PM Porkncheese has not replied

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 53 (843098)
11-13-2018 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Porkncheese
11-13-2018 7:29 AM


Pork And Cheese Requests Food For Thought
Can I please have a theological explanation to destiny without the religion vs science boxing gloves. I'm agnostic remember.
God knows the future right?
So Judas turns Jesus into the Roman's for gold and later hangs himself out of guilt.
This would send a man to hell. But Jesus himself knew what Judas was going to do.
Doesn't seem fair that Judas goes to hell for something that's out of his control.
The other example I will use is Adam and Eve. How does that work when God already has it written in stone?
It's a killer for religion. Makes me feel useless
OK thats what I wanted.
Lets roll.
Edited by AdminPhat, : finishing Topic Starter for member

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Porkncheese, posted 11-13-2018 7:29 AM Porkncheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
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AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 53 (843100)
11-13-2018 10:17 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Christianity... Destiny thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 53 (843102)
11-13-2018 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Porkncheese
11-13-2018 7:29 AM


Lets Roll
P&C writes:
So I'm hoping to get some perspective on destiny.
Fair enough. Before we start, what is it that frustrates you in regards to the " religion vs science boxing gloves"? You claim to be agnostic...which means that you dont yet know or cant know but that out of respect for your family and your upbringing you cling to the idea that God exists. Which is fine. I do also. I suppose that a fair question to start this out is this:
"Why bother with going through the motions in life if our destiny is already written in stone?" My opinion is that we become the decisions that we make. Judas may have been foreknown to be the betrayer, but he chose to do the action. In my belief it is irrelevant if God foreknew what Judas would do. God no more created that destiny than did reality. I believe that Judas created his own destiny through his actions.
Doesn't seem fair that Judas goes to hell for something that's out of his control.
Why does foreknowledge of our actions place them out of our control? It seems that what critics want is actions that God cant know (assuming God exists) they want to be able to freely choose something without having it known in advance. For me personally, I see it as not a problem. I could care less what God knows I will someday do. I wake up each day and live my life and make my choices. It is irrelevant whether I am actually playing out a part and "unable to do otherwise". From my perspective, I'm just living life.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Porkncheese, posted 11-13-2018 7:29 AM Porkncheese has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 53 (843255)
11-15-2018 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by AdminPhat
11-13-2018 10:07 AM


Re: Pork And Cheese Requests Food For Thought
Pork & Cheese writes:
The other example I will use is Adam and Eve. How does that work when God already has it written in stone?
It's a killer for religion. Makes me feel useless
Why feel useless? Live La Vida Loca! Don't trip on religion so much...I never did until I was about 30, and only because I had an experience at a charismatic church that intrigued my curiosity. Yes, I fell for the kool-aid early on, but tossed the organized aspect of religion and kept my basic belief in communion with God through Jesus. As for Adam & Eve, I don't know and don't really care.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by AdminPhat, posted 11-13-2018 10:07 AM AdminPhat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Son of Man, posted 11-16-2018 10:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 10 of 53 (843256)
11-15-2018 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Porkncheese
11-13-2018 7:29 AM


Re: Focus On One Topic
Porkncheese writes:
God knows the future right?
So Judas turns Jesus into the Roman's for gold and later hangs himself out of guilt.
This would send a man to hell. But Jesus himself knew what Judas was going to do.
Doesn't seem fair that Judas goes to hell for something that's out of his control.
The other example I will use is Adam and Eve. How does that work wen God already has it written in stone.
I think your issues are right... but it depends on who "writes it in stone."
That is... if God creates everyone, knowing full well what they will do when created... then God is writing it in stone.
However, if God creates everyone, but doesn't know what anyone will do. And then people write their own decisions in stone... then God looks into the future after His creation event at the stone-writing... well, I don't see a problem with that.
Directly applicable to your example:
If God created Judas and knew Judas was going to do that, then it's a problem for religion.
If God created Judas, didn't know Judas was going to do that... then Jesus looks into the future (that Judas wrote)... and is sad for Judas' decision... then it's not a problem for religion.
The only issue is... when it's "not a problem" for religion, that's only in regards to Free Will. It then creates a problem of God "knowing everything" because God would not have known what Judas was going to do at some point before Judas' creation. I don't see an issue with that at all... but certain religious-types might. Depends on how tied their religion is to the idea that God must know all things at all times.
Edited by Stile, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Porkncheese, posted 11-13-2018 7:29 AM Porkncheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 11-15-2018 12:17 PM Stile has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 11 of 53 (843257)
11-15-2018 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Stile
11-15-2018 12:09 PM


Re: Focus On One Topic
I still don't understand why specifically that foreknowledge is a problem. Let's assume that Jesus is eternal past, present, and future. Thus God(Jesus, in this example) is present at every moment that a human makes a decision. This does not mean that God creates the decision...He is only aware of it. The critic would say that its a problem in that the subject must choose only that destiny...but I say this argument holds no water since at the moment that the choice was made, the subject didn't choose any other way anyhow.
So explain why ultimate foreknowledge is a problem?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Stile, posted 11-15-2018 12:09 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2018 2:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 24 by Stile, posted 11-17-2018 1:55 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 12 of 53 (843265)
11-15-2018 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
11-15-2018 12:17 PM


Re: Focus On One Topic
Phat writes:
So explain why ultimate foreknowledge is a problem?
One reason is that if a reasonable person knows someone is about to do something wrong, they stop them don't they? Again, why is your god less moral than your father?
Another reason is why on earth would he do it anyway? He knows the answer, why run the experiment if you know the outcome? If all he wants to do is fill up heaven, the very least he should do is not run the experiment at all and put the winners directly into heaven.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 11-15-2018 12:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

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Porkncheese
Member (Idle past 268 days)
Posts: 198
From: Australia
Joined: 08-25-2017


Message 13 of 53 (843308)
11-16-2018 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Tangle
11-15-2018 2:55 PM


Re: Focus On One Topic
I think Stile explained it well and on the other hand I have the same thoughts that Tangle expressed as well. I don't think anyone can fully understand the bible
To phats question as to why I don't like the science vs religion war.
Its because I don't believe religion should be influencing science at all
Edited by Porkncheese, : No reason given.

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 Message 12 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2018 2:55 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(2)
Message 14 of 53 (843309)
11-16-2018 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Porkncheese
11-16-2018 7:22 AM


Re: Focus On One Topic
porkncheese writes:
...I don't think anyone can fully understand the bible...
Yes, we sure can. Bronze age goat herders claiming something. That's it.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Porkncheese, posted 11-16-2018 7:22 AM Porkncheese has not replied

  
Son of Man
Junior Member (Idle past 1933 days)
Posts: 26
From: Ireland
Joined: 11-13-2018


Message 15 of 53 (843316)
11-16-2018 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
11-15-2018 12:08 PM


Re: Pork And Cheese Requests Food For Thought
there are two paths in life fate and destiny, if you choose to drive a car recklessly then crash and die you met your fate. I believe that if you make the right choices you will meet your destiny i.e. you will live a long complete life and meet a peaceful death
as for Adam and Eve
I see this story as two serpents not only because it mentions serpents several times, but also that the stories within are symbolic in their reference, also
if Adam was the Atom
And Eve was the Electron taken from the Atom
who gave birth to Cain the Cation (cathode) and Abel the Anion (anode)
Abel was replaced by Seth or static
then I believe you have a cure for snake bites?
Edited by Son of Man, : male to make and added too

the first will be the last and the last will be the first.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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