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Author Topic:   How does the "Faith" vs. "Works" debate relate to Matthew 5-7 & Luke 6 (good fruits)?
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1287
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Message 1 of 3 (843224)
11-14-2018 9:34 PM


Matthew 7:1-3 mentioned the issue of judging others.

quote:

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Whether it was about secular, religious or Israelite law might be beside the point.

But, how does the Sermon on the Mount relate to Faith verses Works?

Matthew 5

quote:

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.


Paul used "Works" as a code word for the Law of Moses (which Jesus is universally recognized as refering to in Matthew 5:17-19).

I would like to see a discussion of what Jesus was saying.

Fundamentalist J Vernon McGhee said that he takes a middle road between (fundamentalist) "hyper dispensationalists" (who dispose the entire Sermon on the Mount as outdated in POST EASTER times) and the theologically liberal people who see the Sermon On The Mount (Matthew 5-7) as their entire religion.

He says he is a "dispensationalist"

He thus disposes the rules, but sees its message as edifying, or something.

How does the old "Sermon" relate to "Faith" verses "Works"?


    
LamarkNewAge
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Message 2 of 3 (843225)
11-15-2018 12:12 AM


Saducees (saduqim or righteous) only followed the Law of Moses.
The Saducees ran the Temple.

The post 1000 AD Roman Catholic Thomas Aquinas came up with the concept of parsing the LAW OF MOSES into a threefold division of laws: moral, ceremonial, and judicial.

Scholars debate (and generally doubt) that Jesus (or any Jew of his time) recognized such a division, and the same is said of the later 1st century Christians.

The thing is that the Hebrew word parallel to righteous is in sections with commands often dismissed as (outdated) ordinances by modern Christains. (Though it is pick and choose, with no strict definition and application based on whatever exact Hebrew word/words being used for commandments, cleaness, uncleaness in the Law of Moses)

Paul used the Greek Septuagint (Genesis 15:6) and it is known that the Septuagint translation of Hebrew sadaqah (Genesis 15:6) is what we now have translated "righteousness" in the English translation of Paul's Septuagint quotation.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/6666.htm

From a work RIGHTEOUSNESS OLD TESTAMENT Cognate Background of ṣdq .

quote:

2. Nouns in the Pentateuch. The comparatively few uses of ṣedeq and ṣĕdēqâ are predominantly legal. The word ṣedeq occurs 7 times in Leviticus and Deuteronomy in a juridical sense. The judge shall be impartial in giving judgment; he shall judge bĕṣedeq (Lev 19:15), according to what is laid down, without regard to persons (cf. Deut 1:16; 16:18, 20; for remaining uses of ṣedeq, see below). The word ṣĕdāqâ is found only in Deuteronomy and Genesis. In the short confession of faith (Deut 6:20– 25), the children ask their father about “the testimonies and the statutes and the ordinances which the Lord our God has commanded you” (v 20). The father replies that Yahweh, who led his people from Egypt, gave the commands “for our good” (v 24); i.e., by such ordered conduct, we will be doing what is proper, ṣĕdāqâ. In Deuteronomy 9, the people are addressed as having already taken possession of the land. But the possession is the result of Yahweh’s action, not theirs; it is not because of their own ṣĕdāqâ (vv 4, 5, 6) that they are there, but because of Yahweh’s action.

In Gen 18:18–19, Yahweh reflects whether he should reveal to Abraham what he is to do to Sodom and Gomorrah: “I have chosen (known) him, that he may charge his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing ṣĕdāqâ and mišpāṭ.” The way of the Lord is the following of his ordinances and commands, and this is ṣĕdāqâ and mišpāṭ.In the episode of the spotted sheep and goats, Jacob says to Laban: “My ṣĕdāqâ will answer for me later” (Gen 30:33). Jacob’s honesty or proper conduct will be his vindication. The accepted interpretation of Gen 15:6 is that Abraham believed in Yahweh and he (Yahweh) attributed it (the act of believing) to him (Abraham) [as] ṣĕdāqâ. Following von Rad’s important essay (PHOE, 130–35), many have seen the background to this famous verse in the liturgy of the temple. The priest declares the worshipper righteous “who conducts himself properly with reference to an existing communal relationship, who, therefore, does justice to the claims which the communal relationship makes on him … Man is righteous so long as he affirms the regulations of this communal relationship established by God, say, the covenant and the commandments.” The Abraham episode is, of course, not within the realm of cult; “it is transferred to the realm of God’s free and personal relationship to Abraham” (von Rad Genesis OTL, 185). According to von Rad, the author of Gen 15:6 has Yahweh, not a temple official, priest or Levite, make the pronouncement. And Yahweh pronounces Abraham to have fulfilled righteousness, to share righteousness, ṣĕdāqâ, not by an act or a work, ritual or otherwise, but by faith.

Von Rad understands the verse less as a polemic than as a revolutionary statement. Faith sets one right with God, and it is God who reckons this internal act to Abraham as ṣĕdāqâ. The MT of Gen 15:6 reads: “And Abraham went on believing (GKC, 112e, [a][A]) in Yahweh and he [who?] reckoned it [what?] to him [to whom?] ṣĕdāqâ.” The LXX reads: “And Abraham believed in God, and it was reckoned (elogisthē, aor. pass.) to him unto righteousness (eis dikaiosynēn). Paul (Rom 4:3; Gal 3:6) and James (2:23) repeat this rendering. However, the text is readily patient of another interpretation: “Abraham went on believing in Yahweh, and he (Abraham) reckoned it (the promise of son and descendants) to him (Yahweh) (as: no prep. in MT) fidelity (ṣĕdāqâ),” i.e., Yahweh, who had promised myriads of descendants to Abraham (12:1–3), has, despite appearances to the contrary (15:2–3), remained faithful to himself (15:4–5) (Gaston 1980; Oeming 1983). When Phinehas rose up and interposed and the plague was stayed (Ps 106:30– 31), this action was reckoned (Nipʿal, pass.) to him liṣdāqâ. Phinehas was considered to have done the proper thing.

3. Other Uses. Isa 5:23 heaps “woe” on judges who “acquit (maṣd q , lit., acquitters of) the guilty for a bribe and reject the right of the just (ṣidqat ṣadd q m; the case of, the just cause of, the just).” For ṣĕdāqâ as claim or right, cf. 2 Sam 19:28–29—Eng 19:27–28; Neh 2:20; see below. The word ṣedeq is used adjectivally, governed by a noun in the construct state, and often in the sense of legitimate. Priests are to offer zibḥę ṣedeq, legitimate sacrifices, i.e., sacrifices according to the liturgical order (Ps 4:6[5]; 51:21[19]; cf. Deut 33:19). The tradesman must have just balances, moʾzn ṣedeq, i.e., scales that do not cheat, but weigh as they ought (Lev 19:36; Deut 25:15). In fact, everything dealing with weights and measures must be ṣedeq (Lev 19:36; Ezek 45:10).

Yahweh’s ordinances for one’s life are mišpāṭę ṣedeq, proper, legitimate ordinances (Ps 119:7, 62, 75). In a royal psalm of thanksgiving the king praises God for his ḥesed (loyalty, steadfast love, Ps 118:15). Yahweh, who has stood by him in his distress, is his yĕšuʿâ (saving action,v 14); the ṣadd q m (the just) extoll Yahweh’s yĕšuʿâ. The king cries out: “Open to me the šaʿăr ṣedeq” (the gates of righteousness, v 19) “for this is the gate of Yahweh” (v 20). The king will enter the city, or temple, to the place where Yahweh’s order is found. The psalm is framed by Yahweh’s ḥesed (vv 1, 29), which leads to his yĕšuʿâ; his steadfast love embraces his saving action and order. (Could malk ṣedeq, Melchizedek of Ps 110:5, mean “legitimate king,” rather than be a proper name? [Dahood Psalms III AB, 117]; cf. the Aramaic inscriptions above.) Yahweh leads the psalmist along maʿgĕl ṣedeq, paths of proper, legitimate, order (Ps 23:3[2]).

In the blessings of Moses, Gad is said to have executed the ṣidqat Yahweh and his mišpāṭ m (Deut 33:21), i.e., Yahweh’s prescribed order (some understand this in a martial context, Yahweh’s prescriptions for war). Other uses of ṣedeq governed by the construct noun, ʿ r haṣṣedeq (a city where order dwells, Isa 1:26), yoʿd ṣedeq (those who experience Yahweh’s saving action, Isa 51:7), ʾęlę ṣedeq (oaks of righteousness, Isa 61:3), are considered below. D.Proper Order, Proper Comportment The word ṣedeq-ṣĕdāqâ is used frequently in coordination with or in parallelism with mišpāṭ (order, ordinance, judgment, a regular way of doing something). The combination ṣedeq-ṣĕdāqâ and mišpāṭ is in essence a hendiadys describing that proper order in the life of the people that is put there and willed by God.


The righteous ones:

The Saducees had sacrifices.

Abraham offered up his son.

But:

The New Testament generally says that righteousness does not involve sacrifices.

In the Old Testament, SDQ is often used as an adjective for sacrifices and judgments.

Sacrifices were for sin attonments.

But what about the sins?

Can a Christian be "righteous" while doing things the Law of Moses says is sin?

Today's Christians, following Aquinas, parse the law into "moral" sins and OUTDATED cultic (also called ceremonial) laws. Plus the NATIONAL "Judicial" laws. The goalposts for morality (and sin) get moved.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by AdminPhat, posted 11-15-2018 7:34 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
AdminPhat
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Joined: 12-03-2004
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Message 3 of 3 (843236)
11-15-2018 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by LamarkNewAge
11-15-2018 12:12 AM


How does the "Faith" vs. "Works" debate relate to Matthew 5-7 & Luke 6 (good fruits)
Hello LNA... *sigh*...Your posts are always so darn lengthy! I am unsure precisely what it is you wish to discuss, but gathered the following by reading your posts:
LNA writes:

Matthew 7:1-3

LNA writes:

How does the Sermon on the Mount relate to Faith verses Works?(...)I would like to see a discussion of what Jesus was saying.

You then go on to mention
Matthew 5-7 which I assume you wanted to discuss. You begin the discussion with these lengthy cut & pastes which clutter your opening post. It is much easier to use links. Use the peek button to see what I did. You also looked up the meaning of tsedaqah: righteousness (related to judgement) Note how easy it is to click on these links. Before I promote your topic, please clarify what your opening comment is regarding this discussion. Keep it brief and present your case for what you think the Sermon actually meant for todays truth seekers. Also in future posts, please refrain from quoting your entire link and simply provide the link for people to click at their discretion before they debate with you. Oh one more quote:
LNA writes:

The Saducees had sacrifices.

Abraham offered up his son.

But:

The New Testament generally says that righteousness does not involve sacrifices.

In the Old Testament, SDQ is often used as an adjective for sacrifices and judgments.

Sacrifices were for sin attonments.

But what about the sins?

Can a Christian be "righteous" while doing things the Law of Moses says is sin?

Today's Christians, following Aquinas, parse the law into "moral" sins and OUTDATED cultic (also called ceremonial) laws. Plus the NATIONAL "Judicial" laws. The goalposts for morality (and sin) get moved.

Who is it that you perceive as "moving these goalposts"? Which specific group do you support as best explaining the intention of the Sermon On The Mount? Also briefly tell us why.

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-15-2018 12:12 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
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