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Member (Idle past 2513 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: For ToErs Eyes Only | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Nuggin Member (Idle past 2513 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Hey guys,
We need to have a little pow-wow about strategy. I've been tooling around the boards, and I keep seeing the same patterns occuring again and again. Basically, we (the ToErs) end up playing nothing be defense. Here's a scenario - ToEr - Do you have any evidence in favor of your theory?Creationist / IDr - If monkeys turned into men, why are there still monkeys? ToEr - Well, there are a number of problems with that question. Here's all the answers (...data follows) C/IDr - Oh yeah, well Archie was just a bird. ToEr - Data C/IDr - The Bible is fact. ToEr - Data. C/IDr - Evolution is the devil. And on and on. Notice we start by asking a question. That question is completely ignored, and instead a different and irrelevent question is asked. We answer. Repeat. It's easy to fall into the trap. I have fallen in hundreds of times and I haven't been here that long. We fall in because people are asking us questions that we have the answers for, so we want to answer them. The problem is this - For Creationists / IDrs simply asking the questions = scoring points. They don't care about the answers. They don't understand the answers. Hell, they don't understand the questions. Think of the debate not as a scientific discussion, but as the audience at Jerry Springer. The Creationist grabs the mic and says "I ain't birthed on account of no monkey" (ie "You're fat ass needs to find yerself a job"). The rest of the audience cheers. Notice that on Jerry Springer, there is no answer to these statements. Simply making the statement is enough. I'm not saying we need to sink to their level. But what choices are we left with? Have we converted anyone here?Have we ever actually "won" a debate? Not by our standards, but by theirs? In one of my threads, Iano said something to the effect of "if you could show me that there we downy feathers before flight feathers, that'd be a big step for me towards believing evolution." I supply links. His reply "Oh, those aren't downy feathers, those are just downy-like feathers." Obviously defense is never gonna get us there. So, what's our game plan?
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
I'll move this there
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
So, what's our game plan? um, to wait for the botch administration to self destruct? One of the tenents of good debate and honest discussion is tolerance of alternate ideas, imho, and going on the attack on someone's personal beliefs tends to invalidate that. So we are mostly left with attacking concepts on the basis of evidence and holding those who do not play by the rules to the fire foot first, as much as possible. BUT We can also present articles on the validity of science, make a clear case for science in certain specific aspects - something like the columnist forum that Ben is working on reviving with my modest effort on the possibilities for abiogenesis on earth and elsewhere in the universe, or Mamuthus' article on sloths. I would like to see a good article on the descent of man from a common ancestor, include neanders, chimps, DNA info, fossils, the woiks. Maybe start by addressing the "why are monkeys still around" as an intro. Perhaps co-authored by a couple of the folks here instead of just one. This message has been edited by RAZD, 10*15*2005 11:51 PM by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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nwr Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Firstly, I agree that the debate is mostly for the audience (i.e. the lurkers). Most creationists who post here won't change their mind. But check the recent posts of mike_the_wiz for an exception.
On the whole we have little choice but to present science, confront creationists with evidence, and remain polite. Otherwise we will be seen as losers. Maybe some folk who know enough to do so, could compile a list of medical treatments and drugs that come from research based on evolutionary biology. But we have to be careful not to exagerate in presenting such a list.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
cancer treatment. mutations, adaptation, it has it all. oh, and survival common now for many forms that were once deadly.
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4015 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
Have we converted anyone here? Have we ever actually "won" a debate? Not by our standards, but by theirs The thing is, Nug, that just as Atho/Evos develop a baloney detector, so do fundies acquire a sentinel----'Warning, Warning, Will Robinson. Fact approaching' which gives them time to alter tack. Think of it as a farce shield.:-p (with apologies to Capt. Kirk)
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 498 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Mike the wiz is back? Since when? Right before his supposed permanent suspension, he was well on his way to becoming the ideal creationist. Has he changed?
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Funkaloyd Inactive Member |
Nuggin writes: In one of my threads, Iano said something to the effect of "if you could show me that there we downy feathers before flight feathers, that'd be a big step for me towards believing evolution."I supply links. His reply "Oh, those aren't downy feathers, those are just downy-like feathers." In these situations, it's a good idea to ask the creationist to define exactly what they're looking before you give it to them. For example, see what Yaro does here.
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 498 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Yeah, but read the response to that post here. You honestly think that guy was sane enough to communicate coherently with the rest of us?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
not only is mike back, check POTM!
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
that's because he's already detected that fossils are evidence against his world view and must be denied, can't deny just the ones that are a problem, therefore must deny all.
it's a typical shut-down systems approach when the individuals nonsense meter pegs. (I like the "warning will robinson" analogy too) by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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tsig Member (Idle past 2930 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
Obviously defense is never gonna get us there. So, what's our game plan? Have you ever considered the difference between the belief in bigfoot and the belief in god? This message has been edited by DHR, 10-16-2005 08:00 AM
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2513 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
hehe
well I don't know if this is what you are going for, but... I believe in Bigfoot
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Bigfoot is plausible.
There is physical evidence (dubious as it may be) for bigfoot. "Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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