Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 83 (8872 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 11-16-2018 3:55 PM
212 online now:
JonF, PaulK, Tangle, Tanypteryx (4 members, 208 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Son of Man
Post Volume:
Total: 842,085 Year: 16,908/29,783 Month: 896/1,956 Week: 399/331 Day: 58/69 Hour: 1/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
23456
...
20NextFF
Author Topic:   YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, adonai, lord, elohim, god, allah, Allah thread.
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 298 (59598)
10-05-2003 9:06 PM


1. elohim - Hebrew generic word for god/a god or if you were Arabic speaking, Hebrew elohim, English god or Arabic allah (lower case) are the words for a god, whether pagan or otherwise.

2. adonai - hebrew generic word meaning a master or lord

3. Allah - (higher case proper name) The name ascribed by Mohammed to be the one and only supreme god. when he determined that the numerous gods/allahs which were once worshipped at Mecca were to be abandoned and that all were to worship his god, Allah. This name was at one time in pagan history ascribed to the moon god. This was the prominent god of Mohammed's ancestory. Many, including myself believe this is indicative of the crescent moon as the official Islamic religious symbold on flags and structures. Mohammed's father's name, in fact was Abd-Allah (meaning in English = slave of god).

4. YHWH - literal Hebrew for the Biblical god, pronounced in Hebrew, Yaweh, in ancient English something like Eowah and in modern English (after J s and V s were added,) Jehovah Whether in Hebrew or in English, this is the official proper higher case name for the god of the Bible.

Note: Because of a superstition of the Jews during the last few centuries before Christ, the name YHWH/Yaweh was not to be spoken and word adonai/lord was usually substitued in translation of the name of the Hebrew god, Yahweh. Most of the NT translators have picked up on this so that's why the scores of texts in which the manuscript stated the name Yahweh/YHWH, it was changed to adonai/lord. The 1901 American Standard Bible (my favorite) is one of the ones which resisted this and correctly translated the Biblical god's name as written in the manuscript. Had the translators remained true to the literal manuscripts in translating, this confusion about Allah and Jehovah being one and the same would not be a problem as it is today. Your various translations will have the words elohim and adonai, i.e. god and lord in the higher case and capitalized. This was done for respect, but again, another deviation from the original manuscript in which these words were not intended as proper names.

5. To my knowledge, the name YHWH/Yaweh/Jehovah does not exist in the Koran and is not allowed to be preached or taught in most fundamentalist Islamic nations. To these people it would be a strange foreign unknown god unless they learned of it outside of religious instruction or strict islamic scholastic educational mediums.

6. The higher case (proper names) of either Allah or Elohim do not exist in any of the Hebrew Biblical manuscrips. elohim is always the lower case word meaning a god or the god and can refer to either Jehovah or any other god depending on the context.

7. Conclusion: The proper name gods, Allah and Jehovah are not one and the same god. Mohammed simply eliminated the proper name of the Hebrew god of Abraham, Yahweh from his thinking and his book and ascribed all pertaining to the Biblical Yahweh/Jehovah to his pagan god, Allah, god of his pagan worshipping ancestors, including his parents, who worshipped at Mecca.

This is important for Americans, as well as others to understand, because Mohammed intended to have all to believe his god is one and the same as the Biblical god so as to make it palatable for Christians and Jews to convert to Islam and for his religion to be acceptable to all in his drive to herd all of humanity under the umbrella and the domination of his doctrines and his god, Allah.

Please understand that this information is not given because I hate Muslims. My motive is simply to promote the truth with factual material. I believe it to be irrefutable factual information. If you do not agree, please, this is not a thread for venting on the messenger. It is a thread for dialogue in which all are welcome to either accept or reject and to inject facts which any feel might shed light on what is said as to it's credibility or on any statements to the contrary.

[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-05-2003]


Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Rei, posted 10-06-2003 2:49 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 7 by PaulK, posted 10-06-2003 3:21 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 44 by Silent H, posted 10-08-2003 2:13 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 167 by macnietspingal, posted 09-17-2006 3:02 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 200 by rizal, posted 04-19-2007 6:09 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 298 (59602)
10-05-2003 9:34 PM


I forgot to define one of the words, I see, that being the word (lower case) allah.

I have communicated with a friend who is a Bible translator in an Islamic majority nation. He informed me that this word allah is their word equivalent for the English word, god. So I take it by this that if he were to communicate to the people a statement like "there are a number of gods worshipped in such and such a village," he would have to use the word, "allah." So his statement would go like this: "There are a number of allahs worshipped in such and such a place."

If he were to tell them about Jehovah, the god of the Bible, as I see it he would need to put it this way. "The allah Jehovah is the allah of the Bible," or the English equivalent of "The god Jehovah is the god og the Bible."

Now that's the lower case word or generic word for a god. But if you raise that word to the higher case and capitalize the A in Allah, you're now talking about something that is not in the Hebrew manuscripts -- a higher case proper name for elohim or allah being Allah, the god of the Koran.

Conclusion: Allah is the god of the Koran. Jehovah is the god of the Bible. They are not one and the same god. Thus the great controversy as to whose god will prevail, that of the Bible, or that of the Koran. I hope this helps some to understand why the cortroversy even exists.

It's the god Allah, his prophet, Mohammed, his book, the Koran
vs
The god Jehovah, his prophet/messiah Jesus and his book the Bible.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by zephyr, posted 10-05-2003 11:41 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 6 by Zhimbo, posted 10-06-2003 3:16 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 3 of 298 (59619)
10-05-2003 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Buzsaw
10-05-2003 9:34 PM


quote:
It's the god Allah, his prophet, Mohammed, his book, the Koran
vs
The god Jehovah, his prophet/messiah Jesus and his book the Bible.

Please, go on. In the name of Allah, let us further polarize the world and continue the bloodshed. Or do you really believe that arguments of this sort will produce any other results?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Buzsaw, posted 10-05-2003 9:34 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Buzsaw, posted 10-06-2003 12:09 AM zephyr has responded
 Message 262 by SAMBEE, posted 02-20-2008 4:40 PM zephyr has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 298 (59625)
10-06-2003 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by zephyr
10-05-2003 11:41 PM


quote:
Please, go on. In the name of Allah, let us further polarize the world and continue the bloodshed. Or do you really believe that arguments of this sort will produce any other results?

Who's arguing? Who's causing bloodshed?
Some wonder why some Islamic nations forbid any Christian thought or the Christian god Jehovah and/or his Christ to be acknowledged or talked about in their nations. This is intended to answer that question for them. Islam is freely taught and practiced in our nation where Christianity is the majority religion. Not so in these Islamic nations for Christians. So it's really Islamic leaders, both political and religious who have initiated the conflict and brought on the intolerance. Also in two threads I have been asked questions about this and rather than go off topic there, here's my answers.

Do you have a problem with posting knowledge about this subject which many are confused about, Zephyr?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by zephyr, posted 10-05-2003 11:41 PM zephyr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by zephyr, posted 10-06-2003 10:26 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 4964 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 5 of 298 (59640)
10-06-2003 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
10-05-2003 9:06 PM


quote:
1. elohim - Hebrew generic word for god/a god or if you were Arabic speaking, Hebrew elohim, English god or Arabic allah (lower case) are the words for a god, whether pagan or otherwise.

Are you going to mention that Elohim is a plural noun? Long have people tried to explain this one away...

quote:
2. adonai - hebrew generic word meaning a master or lord

Are you going to mention that Baal means 'master', and is used in places in the bible to refer El/Elohim/etc?

quote:
3. Allah - (higher case proper name) The name ascribed by Mohammed to be the one and only supreme god. when he determined that the numerous gods/allahs which were once worshipped at Mecca were to be abandoned and that all were to worship his god, Allah. This name was at one time in pagan history ascribed to the moon god. This was the prominent god of Mohammed's ancestory. Many, including myself believe this is indicative of the crescent moon as the official Islamic religious symbold on flags and structures. Mohammed's father's name, in fact was Abd-Allah (meaning in English = slave of god).

Lots of misnomers. The moon god was Sin, not Allah. The sun was Shams/Shamash. Saying to people to abandon worship of multiple gods, and to worship Allah, is the equivalent of an english-speaking Christian saying to stop worshipping multiple gods, and worship God.

Allah is derrived from the same source as the Hebrew word Eloah (remember, the two languages diverged - Biblically, they split at Ishmael/Issac), one of the names of God (a singular form of Elohim) (see Psalm 18:31 for an example of its use). In short, Elohim is plural, but Allah is singular. Try that on for size. Also, in case you're not aware, "Islam" derrives from "salaam" (peace) (the hebrew equivalent is "shalom").

Eloah is used 42 times in the book of Job, for example, in reference to God.

quote:
4. YHWH - literal Hebrew for the Biblical god, pronounced in Hebrew, Yaweh, in ancient English something like Eowah and in modern English (after J s and V s were added,) Jehovah Whether in Hebrew or in English, this is the official proper higher case name for the god of the Bible.

Not quite. This is the name that Moses is told. The original pronunciation of this name has been lost. Since languages change, and vowels don't exist for this word, there is no way to know how it originally was pronounced. "Jehovah" is not of English origin; it is often traced back to Pope Leo X's confessor, but has probably been around a while longer, at least since the 1200s.

quote:
Note: Because of a superstition of the Jews during the last few centuries before Christ, the name YHWH/Yaweh was not to be spoken and word adonai/lord was usually substitued in translation of the name of the Hebrew god, Yahweh. Most of the NT translators have picked up on this so that's why the scores of texts in which the manuscript stated the name Yahweh/YHWH, it was changed to adonai/lord. The 1901 American Standard Bible (my favorite) is one of the ones which resisted this and correctly translated the Biblical god's name as written in the manuscript. Had the translators remained true to the literal manuscripts in translating, this confusion about Allah and Jehovah being one and the same would not be a problem as it is today. Your various translations will have the words elohim and adonai, i.e. god and lord in the higher case and capitalized. This was done for respect, but again, another deviation from the original manuscript in which these words were not intended as proper names.

Orthodox Jewish tradition disagrees with you. There are a list of names which historically have been viewed to be the names of God, and to be treated as sacred.

quote:
6. The higher case (proper names) of either Allah or Elohim do not exist in any of the Hebrew Biblical manuscrips. elohim is always the lower case word meaning a god or the god and can refer to either Jehovah or any other god depending on the context.

What a deceptive remark (probably unintentionally, I'm sure). Are you unaware that hebrew doesn't have case? Neither does Arabic. Neither do most writing systems, for that matter. You seem quite unaware of this.

------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 10-05-2003 9:06 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 3962 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 6 of 298 (59643)
10-06-2003 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Buzsaw
10-05-2003 9:34 PM


Rather than playing word games, wouldn't it be easier to ask Muslims whether their god is the god of the Judeo-Christian Bible? Isn't that what matters?

If that's what Muslims believe, that's the end of the story. Muslims would be the final authority on their own beliefs, yes? Unless you think they're all lying.

[This message has been edited by Zhimbo, 10-06-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Buzsaw, posted 10-05-2003 9:34 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Dr Jack, posted 10-06-2003 10:48 AM Zhimbo has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14490
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 7 of 298 (59644)
10-06-2003 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
10-05-2003 9:06 PM


The fact is that you are repeating anti-Islamic propaganda. Another fact is that you have not bothered to investigate other sources or the counter-arguments. You don't even consider the inconsistencies in your own, single source (didn't you notive that it identified Allah as a title as well as a name ?)

So the truth is that you are passing off claims that are almost certainly false as "facts".

Why do you do that ? Well the obvious answer is that you DO hate Muslims.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 10-05-2003 9:06 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
zephyr
Member (Idle past 2501 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 8 of 298 (59695)
10-06-2003 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Buzsaw
10-06-2003 12:09 AM


I'm all for the free dissemination of information... but it bothers me when said information is employed in the service of an us-vs-them mentality. You'll notice that I didn't object to any of the facts in your post, but to the way you chose to summarize them: emphasizing the differences instead of common threads.
I take issue with your placing the blame for conflict entirely on Muslim leaders, however. I am well aware that the spread of Islam was at times violent, and that some of today's Islamist governments are among the most oppressive around, but history includes myriad atrocities on the part of each religion, as well as a whole lot of state-enforced ignorance and prejudice in the name of God. Additionally, I don't at all believe that our tradition of tolerance can be credited to the prevalence of Christian faith here. Conservative Christians have traditionally opposed progress in that area. Truth, not tolerance; righteousness, not rights....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Buzsaw, posted 10-06-2003 12:09 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 298 (59696)
10-06-2003 10:27 AM


The following is a response from the Koran verses thread to PaulK's post as follows which should have been addressed in this thread designated for this subject.

quote:
If you don't know that "El" is used for God in the Bible then I suggest you reread it. It appears in a number of names - including Bethel, and Immanuel (yes, when it is translated as "God is with us" the final "El" is the part which means "God".

The following is also a response to Rei's post in the same other thread which should have, according to forum rules been posted in this thread. This post is as follows:

quote:
Try not to be too hard on Buz, everyone - he's still learning.
... of course, I hope he catches on in short order to the fact that there is *No* case in Hebrew (like in most alphabets). Occasionally people transliterate Hebrew words with the consonants (written) in upper case (plus other written characters, such as Aleph), and transliterate the implied vowels as lower case - but that doesn't change the fact that there is no upper and lower case in the original Hebrew texts. Now, if you want to get into the Greek texts...

(Here I thought someone here in town was going to genuinely reform and be nice to me besides my Muslim friend, (so far) Andya} LOL!

PaulK,
In neither of the words you cite does it specifically name the supreme God as to his proper name. It was clearly understood that there was a specific name, YHWH which was the creator supreme god's proper name. Other words and names attributed to him were descriptive in various ways or attributed places, people or things to him, such as is the case with Immanuel or Bethel.

PaulK and Rei,
For example, it was understood that the name proper name of Joshua was just that, Joshua. Now, just as one would say Joshua was a man, one would say Jehovah is a god (elohim, Hebrew or allah, Arabic) Both Allah and Jehovah were also considered lords, i.e. adonai in Hebrew, but again this was not the proper name of either gods. When translating literally and imo, correctly, one would not use the higher case by capitalizing either of the words el -elohim (god) or adonai (lord). My point here is that there was a name in the Hebrew language understood to be what we would know as the higer case which would be what we know as the proper name of the supreme being, just as was the case with people and places. Savvy?

[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-06-2003]


Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by PaulK, posted 10-06-2003 10:39 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 12 by NosyNed, posted 10-06-2003 10:55 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14490
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 10 of 298 (59703)
10-06-2003 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Buzsaw
10-06-2003 10:27 AM


El is indeed a name applied to God, in the Bible.YOu don't cite any sources - probably because this idea is your own invention.

Try this
http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/misc/name_god.html
"El is another name that is translated as "God" and can be used in conjunction with other words to designate various aspects of God's character"

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/20020610.htm
"El is used over 200 times as a Name for God...."

http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.showResource/CT/RA/k/367.htm
"Nevertheless, God is called El in Genesis 14:20 and in many other places."

All three sources are Christian. All three disagree with you - and I can easily find more.

So where is the support for your assertions ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Buzsaw, posted 10-06-2003 10:27 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Buzsaw, posted 10-06-2003 6:13 PM PaulK has responded

    
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 56 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 11 of 298 (59706)
10-06-2003 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Zhimbo
10-06-2003 3:16 AM


Rather than playing word games, wouldn't it be easier to ask Muslims whether their god is the god of the Judeo-Christian Bible? Isn't that what matters?

I asked an Muslim girl I know this once (she's married to a Catholic so religious discusions between the three of us are always fun). She told me that the god of the old testament is Allah but the bible is inaccurate, and that Jesus is not Allah but instead just one of his prophets.

Interestingly in the course of discussions with her I discovered that almost everything I had been told about Islam by the church I use to attend was false (or when I'm feeling less charitable, a lie).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Zhimbo, posted 10-06-2003 3:16 AM Zhimbo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by PaulK, posted 10-06-2003 11:06 AM Dr Jack has responded
 Message 25 by Prozacman, posted 10-07-2003 7:24 PM Dr Jack has not yet responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8811
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 12 of 298 (59710)
10-06-2003 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Buzsaw
10-06-2003 10:27 AM


You were given very specific points, Buz. Did you answer any of them? I can't tell.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Buzsaw, posted 10-06-2003 10:27 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14490
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 13 of 298 (59713)
10-06-2003 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dr Jack
10-06-2003 10:48 AM


A simple question for Buzsaw
Since you've done your research you can answer this one easily.

According to Muhammads story of how the Quran was written, who appeared to him and told him to "Recite" ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Dr Jack, posted 10-06-2003 10:48 AM Dr Jack has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Dr Jack, posted 10-06-2003 11:19 AM PaulK has responded
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 10-06-2003 7:35 PM PaulK has responded
 Message 89 by Abshalom, posted 12-02-2003 2:41 PM PaulK has responded

    
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 56 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 14 of 298 (59716)
10-06-2003 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by PaulK
10-06-2003 11:06 AM


Re: A simple question for Buzsaw
I'm confused, your question is addressed to Buzsaw, but a reply to my message?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by PaulK, posted 10-06-2003 11:06 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 10-06-2003 11:32 AM Dr Jack has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14490
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 15 of 298 (59720)
10-06-2003 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dr Jack
10-06-2003 11:19 AM


Re: A simple question for Buzsaw
True, I originally intended to agree - but then decided that that might confuse things.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Dr Jack, posted 10-06-2003 11:19 AM Dr Jack has not yet responded

    
1
23456
...
20NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018