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Author | Topic: YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, adonai, lord, elohim, god, allah, Allah thread. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
1. elohim - Hebrew generic word for god/a god or if you were Arabic speaking, Hebrew elohim, English god or Arabic allah (lower case) are the words for a god, whether pagan or otherwise.
2. adonai - hebrew generic word meaning a master or lord 3. Allah - (higher case proper name) The name ascribed by Mohammed to be the one and only supreme god. when he determined that the numerous gods/allahs which were once worshipped at Mecca were to be abandoned and that all were to worship his god, Allah. This name was at one time in pagan history ascribed to the moon god. This was the prominent god of Mohammed's ancestory. Many, including myself believe this is indicative of the crescent moon as the official Islamic religious symbold on flags and structures. Mohammed's father's name, in fact was Abd-Allah (meaning in English = slave of god). 4. YHWH - literal Hebrew for the Biblical god, pronounced in Hebrew, Yaweh, in ancient English something like Eowah and in modern English (after J s and V s were added,) Jehovah Whether in Hebrew or in English, this is the official proper higher case name for the god of the Bible. Note: Because of a superstition of the Jews during the last few centuries before Christ, the name YHWH/Yaweh was not to be spoken and word adonai/lord was usually substitued in translation of the name of the Hebrew god, Yahweh. Most of the NT translators have picked up on this so that's why the scores of texts in which the manuscript stated the name Yahweh/YHWH, it was changed to adonai/lord. The 1901 American Standard Bible (my favorite) is one of the ones which resisted this and correctly translated the Biblical god's name as written in the manuscript. Had the translators remained true to the literal manuscripts in translating, this confusion about Allah and Jehovah being one and the same would not be a problem as it is today. Your various translations will have the words elohim and adonai, i.e. god and lord in the higher case and capitalized. This was done for respect, but again, another deviation from the original manuscript in which these words were not intended as proper names. 5. To my knowledge, the name YHWH/Yaweh/Jehovah does not exist in the Koran and is not allowed to be preached or taught in most fundamentalist Islamic nations. To these people it would be a strange foreign unknown god unless they learned of it outside of religious instruction or strict islamic scholastic educational mediums. 6. The higher case (proper names) of either Allah or Elohim do not exist in any of the Hebrew Biblical manuscrips. elohim is always the lower case word meaning a god or the god and can refer to either Jehovah or any other god depending on the context. 7. Conclusion: The proper name gods, Allah and Jehovah are not one and the same god. Mohammed simply eliminated the proper name of the Hebrew god of Abraham, Yahweh from his thinking and his book and ascribed all pertaining to the Biblical Yahweh/Jehovah to his pagan god, Allah, god of his pagan worshipping ancestors, including his parents, who worshipped at Mecca. This is important for Americans, as well as others to understand, because Mohammed intended to have all to believe his god is one and the same as the Biblical god so as to make it palatable for Christians and Jews to convert to Islam and for his religion to be acceptable to all in his drive to herd all of humanity under the umbrella and the domination of his doctrines and his god, Allah. Please understand that this information is not given because I hate Muslims. My motive is simply to promote the truth with factual material. I believe it to be irrefutable factual information. If you do not agree, please, this is not a thread for venting on the messenger. It is a thread for dialogue in which all are welcome to either accept or reject and to inject facts which any feel might shed light on what is said as to it's credibility or on any statements to the contrary. [This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-05-2003]
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
I forgot to define one of the words, I see, that being the word (lower case) allah.
I have communicated with a friend who is a Bible translator in an Islamic majority nation. He informed me that this word allah is their word equivalent for the English word, god. So I take it by this that if he were to communicate to the people a statement like "there are a number of gods worshipped in such and such a village," he would have to use the word, "allah." So his statement would go like this: "There are a number of allahs worshipped in such and such a place." If he were to tell them about Jehovah, the god of the Bible, as I see it he would need to put it this way. "The allah Jehovah is the allah of the Bible," or the English equivalent of "The god Jehovah is the god og the Bible." Now that's the lower case word or generic word for a god. But if you raise that word to the higher case and capitalize the A in Allah, you're now talking about something that is not in the Hebrew manuscripts -- a higher case proper name for elohim or allah being Allah, the god of the Koran. Conclusion: Allah is the god of the Koran. Jehovah is the god of the Bible. They are not one and the same god. Thus the great controversy as to whose god will prevail, that of the Bible, or that of the Koran. I hope this helps some to understand why the cortroversy even exists. It's the god Allah, his prophet, Mohammed, his book, the Koranvs The god Jehovah, his prophet/messiah Jesus and his book the Bible.
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zephyr Member (Idle past 4578 days) Posts: 821 From: FOB Taji, Iraq Joined: |
quote:Please, go on. In the name of Allah, let us further polarize the world and continue the bloodshed. Or do you really believe that arguments of this sort will produce any other results?
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
quote: Who's arguing? Who's causing bloodshed?Some wonder why some Islamic nations forbid any Christian thought or the Christian god Jehovah and/or his Christ to be acknowledged or talked about in their nations. This is intended to answer that question for them. Islam is freely taught and practiced in our nation where Christianity is the majority religion. Not so in these Islamic nations for Christians. So it's really Islamic leaders, both political and religious who have initiated the conflict and brought on the intolerance. Also in two threads I have been asked questions about this and rather than go off topic there, here's my answers. Do you have a problem with posting knowledge about this subject which many are confused about, Zephyr?
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Rei Member (Idle past 7041 days) Posts: 1546 From: Iowa City, IA Joined: |
quote: Are you going to mention that Elohim is a plural noun? Long have people tried to explain this one away...
quote: Are you going to mention that Baal means 'master', and is used in places in the bible to refer El/Elohim/etc?
quote: Lots of misnomers. The moon god was Sin, not Allah. The sun was Shams/Shamash. Saying to people to abandon worship of multiple gods, and to worship Allah, is the equivalent of an english-speaking Christian saying to stop worshipping multiple gods, and worship God. Allah is derrived from the same source as the Hebrew word Eloah (remember, the two languages diverged - Biblically, they split at Ishmael/Issac), one of the names of God (a singular form of Elohim) (see Psalm 18:31 for an example of its use). In short, Elohim is plural, but Allah is singular. Try that on for size. Also, in case you're not aware, "Islam" derrives from "salaam" (peace) (the hebrew equivalent is "shalom"). Eloah is used 42 times in the book of Job, for example, in reference to God.
quote: Not quite. This is the name that Moses is told. The original pronunciation of this name has been lost. Since languages change, and vowels don't exist for this word, there is no way to know how it originally was pronounced. "Jehovah" is not of English origin; it is often traced back to Pope Leo X's confessor, but has probably been around a while longer, at least since the 1200s.
quote: Orthodox Jewish tradition disagrees with you. There are a list of names which historically have been viewed to be the names of God, and to be treated as sacred.
quote: What a deceptive remark (probably unintentionally, I'm sure). Are you unaware that hebrew doesn't have case? Neither does Arabic. Neither do most writing systems, for that matter. You seem quite unaware of this. ------------------"Illuminant light, illuminate me."
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Zhimbo Member (Idle past 6039 days) Posts: 571 From: New Hampshire, USA Joined: |
Rather than playing word games, wouldn't it be easier to ask Muslims whether their god is the god of the Judeo-Christian Bible? Isn't that what matters?
If that's what Muslims believe, that's the end of the story. Muslims would be the final authority on their own beliefs, yes? Unless you think they're all lying. [This message has been edited by Zhimbo, 10-06-2003]
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
The fact is that you are repeating anti-Islamic propaganda. Another fact is that you have not bothered to investigate other sources or the counter-arguments. You don't even consider the inconsistencies in your own, single source (didn't you notive that it identified Allah as a title as well as a name ?)
So the truth is that you are passing off claims that are almost certainly false as "facts". Why do you do that ? Well the obvious answer is that you DO hate Muslims.
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zephyr Member (Idle past 4578 days) Posts: 821 From: FOB Taji, Iraq Joined: |
I'm all for the free dissemination of information... but it bothers me when said information is employed in the service of an us-vs-them mentality. You'll notice that I didn't object to any of the facts in your post, but to the way you chose to summarize them: emphasizing the differences instead of common threads.
I take issue with your placing the blame for conflict entirely on Muslim leaders, however. I am well aware that the spread of Islam was at times violent, and that some of today's Islamist governments are among the most oppressive around, but history includes myriad atrocities on the part of each religion, as well as a whole lot of state-enforced ignorance and prejudice in the name of God. Additionally, I don't at all believe that our tradition of tolerance can be credited to the prevalence of Christian faith here. Conservative Christians have traditionally opposed progress in that area. Truth, not tolerance; righteousness, not rights....
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
The following is a response from the Koran verses thread to PaulK's post as follows which should have been addressed in this thread designated for this subject.
quote: The following is also a response to Rei's post in the same other thread which should have, according to forum rules been posted in this thread. This post is as follows:
quote: (Here I thought someone here in town was going to genuinely reform and be nice to me besides my Muslim friend, (so far) Andya} LOL! PaulK,In neither of the words you cite does it specifically name the supreme God as to his proper name. It was clearly understood that there was a specific name, YHWH which was the creator supreme god's proper name. Other words and names attributed to him were descriptive in various ways or attributed places, people or things to him, such as is the case with Immanuel or Bethel. PaulK and Rei,For example, it was understood that the name proper name of Joshua was just that, Joshua. Now, just as one would say Joshua was a man, one would say Jehovah is a god (elohim, Hebrew or allah, Arabic) Both Allah and Jehovah were also considered lords, i.e. adonai in Hebrew, but again this was not the proper name of either gods. When translating literally and imo, correctly, one would not use the higher case by capitalizing either of the words el -elohim (god) or adonai (lord). My point here is that there was a name in the Hebrew language understood to be what we would know as the higer case which would be what we know as the proper name of the supreme being, just as was the case with people and places. Savvy? [This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-06-2003]
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
El is indeed a name applied to God, in the Bible.YOu don't cite any sources - probably because this idea is your own invention.
Try thisBible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible "El is another name that is translated as "God" and can be used in conjunction with other words to designate various aspects of God's character" Bible Study – Christian Education Resource"El is used over 200 times as a Name for God...." http://bibletools.org/...ibrary.showResource/CT/RA/k/367.htm"Nevertheless, God is called El in Genesis 14:20 and in many other places." All three sources are Christian. All three disagree with you - and I can easily find more. So where is the support for your assertions ?
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
Rather than playing word games, wouldn't it be easier to ask Muslims whether their god is the god of the Judeo-Christian Bible? Isn't that what matters? I asked an Muslim girl I know this once (she's married to a Catholic so religious discusions between the three of us are always fun). She told me that the god of the old testament is Allah but the bible is inaccurate, and that Jesus is not Allah but instead just one of his prophets. Interestingly in the course of discussions with her I discovered that almost everything I had been told about Islam by the church I use to attend was false (or when I'm feeling less charitable, a lie).
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
You were given very specific points, Buz. Did you answer any of them? I can't tell.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Since you've done your research you can answer this one easily.
According to Muhammads story of how the Quran was written, who appeared to him and told him to "Recite" ?
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
I'm confused, your question is addressed to Buzsaw, but a reply to my message?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
True, I originally intended to agree - but then decided that that might confuse things.
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