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Author Topic:   Mr. Warren's "10 questions". Species transition subset.
Huntard
Member (Idle past 245 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 1 of 8 (491324)
12-14-2008 10:38 AM


Bertot pointed me to a debate between two people about "the existence of god".

In this debate one of the participants, namely Mr. Warren, had asked his opponent 10 questions. I would like to give answers to these myself, as I think Mr. Flew (the one who answered these questions) gave some pretty lousy answers to them.

First of all, here's the entire debate: http://www.thebible1.net/video/warrenflewdebate/

The questions are all brought up during Mr. Warren's first speech.

I will reproduce the questions and my answers here:

This is the volution part, there is also a morality part.

4) Of the following statements, which one is true or false?
A woman was on earth before any human baby.

True.

A human baby was on earth before any woman.
False.

Now note, I'm talking about modern humans here. This wasn't clear from the question, and I certainly would've asked for clarification if I could.

6) Of the following statements, which one is true or false?
At least one human being now living on Earth formerly was an ape or some other non human being, and that ape was transformed into a human being.

False.

At least one human being that lived in the past but who is now dead was at one time an ape or some other non human being, and that ape was transformed into that human being.
False.

I would further like to say this is a ridiculous straw man.

7) Of the following statements, which one is true or false?
At least one human being now living on earth was begotten of a male ape, or some other non human male, and born of a female ape or some other non human female.

False.

At least one human being who lived in the past but is now dead was begotten of a male ape, or some other non human male, and born of a female ape or some other non human female.
This one's true. Note, I am again talking of modern humans.

Now that you have my answers, I would like to discuss the points raised by these questions and my answers to them. Do you agree or disagree, and why?

Edited by AdminNosy, : Title change


I hunt for the truth
Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 8 (491330)
12-14-2008 10:54 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

I changed the title to distinguish between the two sets of questions. I hope that is ok.

Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.


  
onifre
Member (Idle past 901 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 3 of 8 (491343)
12-14-2008 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Huntard
12-14-2008 10:38 AM


Hi Huntard,


Bertot pointed me to a debate between two people about "the existence of god".

This seems like a philosophical question, not a question that would involve evolution.

Of the following statements, which one is true or false?
A woman was on earth before any human baby.

The ultimate problem with this question is, Where do you draw the line between homo-sapiens and others in homo-genus?

The problem with the rest of these question is, Does human refer to only homo-sapiens or does it include the entire homo-genus?

This would have to be established before anyone could give the correct answer.

The other issue I see is the use of the word ape. As I understand it we are bi-pedal apes. So to the questions...

quote:
Of the following statements, which one is true or false?
At least one human being now living on Earth formerly was an ape or some other non human being, and that ape was transformed into a human being.

At least one human being that lived in the past but who is now dead was at one time an ape or some other non human being, and that ape was transformed into that human being.

Of the following statements, which one is true or false?
At least one human being now living on earth was begotten of a male ape, or some other non human male, and born of a female ape or some other non human female.

At least one human being who lived in the past but is now dead was begotten of a male ape, or some other non human male, and born of a female ape or some other non human female.


I would say true, it happens everyday. Bi-pedal apes are born everyday, we call each other humans, but we're still apes.

My opinion of this line of questioning is that it's complete bullshit. The original question about God is philosophical and has nothing to do with evolution. Even if evolution was completely wrong, which it's not, there's still no evidence for God. So, disproving evolution does NOT prove God by default. It seems like the typical creationist misunderstanding of evolution and of what the theory shows us. It does not prove or disprove God. It is a science related topic not a philosophical one. Questions about God however, are ONLY philosophical and lend no weight to the validity of evolution.


"All great truths begin as blasphemies"

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks

"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Huntard, posted 12-14-2008 10:38 AM Huntard has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19666
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 4 of 8 (491348)
12-14-2008 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Huntard
12-14-2008 10:38 AM


Hey Huntard,

Bertot pointed me to a debate between two people about "the existence of god".

Aside from the point that evolution has nothing to do with god ... I have some problems with your answers here:

This is the volution part, there is also a morality part.

4) Of the following statements, which one is true or false?
A woman was on earth before any human baby.
True.

A human baby was on earth before any woman.
False.

Now note, I'm talking about modern humans here. This wasn't clear from the question, and I certainly would've asked for clarification if I could.

At one point that woman was a baby, so what has she acquired since birth that makes her as a baby not human but her as an adult human. I would have them the other way around.

Or are we talking about the woman being 99% human (still a non-human ape) and the child being 100%?

6) Of the following statements, which one is true or false?
At least one human being now living on Earth formerly was an ape or some other non human being, and that ape was transformed into a human being.
False.

At least one human being that lived in the past but who is now dead was at one time an ape or some other non human being, and that ape was transformed into that human being.
False.

I would further like to say this is a ridiculous straw man.

Humans are apes. They don't stop being apes when they become human. The second case here is where you answered true for the woman above - is she wasn't human when born, then she became human afterwards.

7) Of the following statements, which one is true or false?
At least one human being now living on earth was begotten of a male ape, or some other non human male, and born of a female ape or some other non human female.
False.

At least one human being who lived in the past but is now dead was begotten of a male ape, or some other non human male, and born of a female ape or some other non human female.
This one's true. Note, I am again talking of modern humans.

Again we are back to the baby being born human (ape) from non-human ape, rather than the woman becoming human after birth.

Enjoy.


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by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Huntard, posted 12-14-2008 10:38 AM Huntard has not yet responded

  
fallacycop
Member (Idle past 3470 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 5 of 8 (491359)
12-14-2008 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Huntard
12-14-2008 10:38 AM


I'll answer those questions after someone answers some questions of my own. I'll use the dog breed "PUG", but any other dog breed would do. Pick your favorite.

4) Of the following statements, which one is true or false?
A GROWN FEMALE PUG was on earth before any PUG PUPPY.

A PUG PUPPY was on earth before any GROWN FEMALE PUG.

6) Of the following statements, which one is true or false?
At least one PUG now living on Earth formerly was a DOG or some other non PUG being, and that DOG was transformed into a PUG.

At least one PUG that lived in the past but who is now dead was at one time a DOG or some other non PUG, and that DOG was transformed into that PUG.

7) Of the following statements, which one is true or false?
At least one PUG now living on earth was begotten of a male DOG, or some other non PUG male, and born of a female DOG or some other non PUG female.

At least one PUG who lived in the past but is now dead was begotten of a male DOG, or some other non PUG male, and born of a female DOG or some other non PUG female.

I assert that my set of questions make as much sense as the questions in the OP.


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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 6 of 8 (491362)
12-14-2008 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Huntard
12-14-2008 10:38 AM


Huntard writes:

quote:
4) Of the following statements, which one is true or false?
A woman was on earth before any human baby.
A human baby was on earth before any woman.

This is the "Which came first: The chicken or the egg" question. This cannot be defined without a clear definition of what a "woman" is and what a "baby" is. No, this is not a trivial thing. If we get into a circular definition, then the question becomes unanswerable.

The underlying question that avoids the entire issue is what does it mean to be a "human." Given the way evolution works, offspring are not the same thing as the parents. Thus, the first "human" was born from parents who were not "human."

And as onifre pointed out, humans are apes. If we're going to make the distinction between humans and apes, and I agree that a case could be made, then the questions regarding humans and apes need to be vigorously pointed out that the use of the phrase "ape or some other non-human" is specifically designed to play to the emotions. We're back to the Nineteenth Century when people were claiming, "I didn't descend from apes!"

Humans did not descend from apes. Apes did not descend from humans. Both apes and humans descended from a common ancestor that was neither human nor ape. Yes, yes, the phrase also said, "non-human," but that was an afterthought on the part of the questioner. They're trying to play to emotions so that when we say that we are descended from those that aren't human, the people listening to the debate will immediately think "ape" and dismiss the evolutionary explanation.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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ikabod
Member (Idle past 2443 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 7 of 8 (491383)
12-15-2008 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Huntard
12-14-2008 10:38 AM


You really do need to follow the OP link and watch the debate to understand what these questions are about , they are not stand alone questions , but part of a set of constructed querries to allow Mr Warren to defeat Mr Flew in a debate .
This is why the questions hold limited infomation and have true or false answers , they are designed to make you answer in such a way as to provide Mr Warren with debating ammo .

Outside of the context of the debate they are not relevent , 7 & 8 show no idea of evolutionry transistions , and 4 is the old chicken and egg game .


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killinghurts
Member (Idle past 2943 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 8 of 8 (491420)
12-15-2008 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Rrhain
12-14-2008 9:07 PM


quote:
Humans did not descend from apes. Apes did not descend from humans. Both apes and humans descended from a common ancestor that was neither human nor ape. Yes, yes, the phrase also said, "non-human," but that was an afterthought on the part of the questioner. They're trying to play to emotions so that when we say that we are descended from those that aren't human, the people listening to the debate will immediately think "ape" and dismiss the evolutionary explanation.

Well pointed out - I actually got confused when that question was posed. It's amazing how carefully deceptive such a question is.

I guess that is what they do best though.


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 Message 6 by Rrhain, posted 12-14-2008 9:07 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

  
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