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Author Topic:   I Am Not An Atheist!
Percy
Member
Posts: 13209
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1 of 382 (496750)
01-30-2009 10:02 AM


I'm not an agnostic, either.

Creationists commonly associate evolution and much else in science with atheism. Hence we're treated to a constant barrage of phrases like "atheistic evolution", "Godless cosmology" and "immoral science". They'll mix and match adjectives and nouns to their heart's content, but the message is always the same: those who reject creationist views are atheists who reject or even hate God.

When the ID controversy in Dover, Pennsylvania, erupted into public acrimony, those on the side of science were condemned as atheists. It didn't matter if you were a church going Christian who taught Bible class and ran a summer Bible camp (specifically, Bryan Rehm and his wife), if you were against creationism then you were an atheist.

I disagree with Creationists because they are wrong, deeply and fatally wrong. It has nothing to do with atheism.

--Percy

PS - Miscellaneous forum?


Replies to this message:
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 Message 6 by Blue Jay, posted 01-30-2009 6:08 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 7 by Buzsaw, posted 01-30-2009 6:40 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 18 by Agobot, posted 02-01-2009 6:49 PM Percy has responded
 Message 81 by iano, posted 02-04-2009 7:11 PM Percy has responded
 Message 88 by Straggler, posted 02-05-2009 5:40 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 263 by Kelly, posted 03-02-2009 10:39 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 303 by marc9000, posted 08-09-2012 7:40 PM Percy has responded
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AdminModulous
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Message 2 of 382 (496752)
01-30-2009 10:08 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 4708
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 3 of 382 (496768)
01-30-2009 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
01-30-2009 10:02 AM


Radical "religion"
I disagree with Creationists because they are wrong, deeply and fatally wrong. It has nothing to do with atheism.

You are correct. It has nothing to do with atheism.

That's because, as Agobot hinted on another thread, and I have seen consistently elsewhere, you are a member of a radical "religion" -- presumably evolutionism or Darwinism or some such!

Humor aside, I find it telling that some creationists accuse scientists in general, and evolutionary scientists in particular, of alternately being atheists or of adhering to some fundamentalist "Darwinist" religion.

Some go even further. From another website:

quote:
Let’s call [Darwinism] what it is, Satanism. That’s where it comes from - Satan- and he’s who they will spend eternity with for blaspheming against God.

I’m saying that evolution is not science and is of Satan.


I guess, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, eh?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
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olivortex
Member (Idle past 1212 days)
Posts: 70
From: versailles, france
Joined: 01-28-2009


Message 4 of 382 (496772)
01-30-2009 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coyote
01-30-2009 12:37 PM


Re: Radical "religion"
Or a mole. Oh no, wait, it's a creature designed by HIM, so let's stick with nails.
This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 624 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 5 of 382 (496792)
01-30-2009 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
01-30-2009 10:02 AM



I disagree with Creationists because they are wrong, deeply and fatally wrong. It has nothing to do with atheism.

I agree. A person's beliefs in one area should have no effect in something which is not related. I also feel that calling someone a satanist because because he doesn't agree with the creo is just as as inane.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 36 days)
Posts: 2615
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 6 of 382 (496798)
01-30-2009 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
01-30-2009 10:02 AM


Hi, Percy.

Condemning evil is part of Christianity. And, since the extreme dualism of Christianity allows only two possibilites (good or evil), whenever a disagreement comes up, it only makes sense to assign one side as "good," and the other side as "evil," simply because "good" does not disagree with "good."

Well, who's going to believe that their own side is the "evil" one?

From there, black-and-white, absolute dualistic morality forbids any conclusion except, "you are of the Devil."

-----

I'm sure you know this already, but writing it made me feel better.


-Bluejay/Mantis/Thylacosmilus

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 7 of 382 (496807)
01-30-2009 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
01-30-2009 10:02 AM


Percy Agnostic?
Hi Percy. If I recall correctly, you once stated that you were an agnostic. Do I have that right?

I would guess that roughly 30% of evolutionists would identify themselves as atheistic, 20% as theists and 50% as agnostic. Again, that's a wild guess. Perhaps a good percentage of theists would be Unitarian. I'm not sure it's possible for a Unitarian by definition to be agnostic, considering the Unitarian doctrinal statement.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 8 of 382 (496809)
01-30-2009 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Blue Jay
01-30-2009 6:08 PM


Re: Of The Devil
Perhaps the terms "of the devil" and "satanist" apply more to people who are willfully committed to evil. Nobody is immune to sins of one form or another.

I regard atheists more so as deluded than committed to evil.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 624 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 9 of 382 (496812)
01-30-2009 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
01-30-2009 6:57 PM


Re: Of The Devil
I regard atheists more so as deluded than committed to evil.

Well that's nice to hear. We agree on one thing, we both feel that each other is deluded. [Fine, now that that is settled anybody got anything constructive to say. (sarcasm)]

Edited by bluescat48, : sp


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


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Asgara
Member
Posts: 1686
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 10 of 382 (496828)
01-30-2009 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
01-30-2009 6:40 PM


Re: Percy Agnostic?
Percy has never stated he was agnostic.

He is a deist.


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Taz
Member
Posts: 5047
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 11 of 382 (496832)
01-31-2009 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Asgara
01-30-2009 10:40 PM


Re: Percy Agnostic?
Asgara writes:

He is a deist.


AKA a TRUE American.
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Taz
Member
Posts: 5047
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 12 of 382 (496833)
01-31-2009 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
01-30-2009 6:57 PM


Re: Of The Devil
Buzsaw writes:

I regard atheists more so as deluded than committed to evil.


Haha, we're not deluded. We just refuse to believe in an immaterial pink unicorn. Speaking of which, I haven't burnt a cat and eaten a baby for a few weeks now. I'm starting to shake. First thing in the morning I will go out to get some gasoline to burn my neighbor's cat and kidnap my neighbor's baby to eat.
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Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 0 days)
Posts: 2284
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 13 of 382 (496834)
01-31-2009 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
01-30-2009 6:40 PM


"Evolutionism" ≠ Atheism
Hi Buz,

quote:
I would guess that roughly 30% of evolutionists would identify themselves as atheistic, 20% as theists and 50% as agnostic. Again, that's a wild guess.

Allow me to make another wild guess.

First off, how are you defining "evolutionist"? Let's be quite clear, outside of these adversarial creo vs evo debates, there is no such thing as an "evolutionist". The term is not in wide use and is certainly hardly ever used by scientists. In fact it is most frequently used by creationists. That's fine by me; we need to have ways to refer to the two main camps in discussions such as those on EvC.

Just remember that if you are using "evolutionist" simply to refer to "someone who accepts the veracity of the Theory of Evolution", that covers a much wider group of people than those you might find on internet discussion boards.

Viewed as a whole, and not just through the rather narrow window of EvC Forum, most "evolutionists" are theists of one stripe or another. Most people are theists. Most scientists are theists, although comparatively fewer than the population as a whole. Thus, it seems pretty reasonable to assume that most of those who accept evolutionary theory are indeed believers in a god or gods.

Not all theists are as hostile toward evolution as you Buz. Your guess has, I'm guessing, been coloured by your experiences on this board and perhaps others like it. Back in the real world, there is no conflict between many forms of religious belief and the Theory of Evolution. Just look at the numbers. In the US, about 40% believe evolution to be true, yet only about 4% are non-religious. Source and source.

How can that possibly work out if your guess is even close to being right? Answer; it can't. You're wrong.

Most evolutionist are theists, they're just not the same kind of theist as you are.

Mutate and Survive


"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 2812
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 14 of 382 (496841)
01-31-2009 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Granny Magda
01-31-2009 1:21 AM


Re: "Evolutionism" ≠ Atheism
Granny writes:

In the US, about 40% believe evolution to be true, yet only about 4% are non-religious.

About 15% are non-religious, Granny. Your link actually agrees with that, and it fits what I've found over the last few years. The non-religious are by far the fastest growing sector. About two thirds of them are non-theists, and the other third vague deist/theist types (probably where the Percys of this world fit in). That's why the often quoted statistic that 90% of Americans believe in God is also correct.

An easy to remember approximation is:

75% Christian, 10% other religions, 5% deist, and 10% non-theist, with the last two making up those who will tick the "no religion" box on questionnaires.

Note the interesting stats for Judaism in your wiki link. Jews have the highest education levels, and the religion's being decimated. About 20% are non-religious, and 25% have left for other religions (hardly surprising, as about 50% are marrying non-Jews).

You're right, of course, in saying that there are more theistic evolutionists than non-theistic evolutionists. Actual self described atheist evolutionists may be only 5% of the population, making the creationist view that evolution = atheism look ridiculous (like all their other claims, when you think about it ;)).


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Modulous
Member
Posts: 6318
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 15 of 382 (496843)
01-31-2009 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
01-30-2009 6:40 PM


An eye opener for Buz
I would guess that roughly 30% of evolutionists would identify themselves as atheistic, 20% as theists and 50% as agnostic. Again, that's a wild guess

In the US, approximately 35% of the population are theistic evolutionists and 15% believe that God did not intervene in evolution. 45% are Creationists. That is according to this survey.

These figures would indicate that most evolutionists believe in an interventionist God (twice as many as those that believe that God doesn't get involved in evolution). This also does not count those theists that believe in an interventionist God, but don't think it intervenes in evolution.

Other surveys carried out the US support the view that approximately twice as many theistic evolutionists exist than non-theistic evolutionists. So the statistics would more realistically be 66% of evolutionists are theistic, 33% of them are atheistic/agnostic.


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