CERN - Large Hadron Collider and the Very Early Universe

One of the technological mavels of our time is about to be unleashed.Cern | Science | The GuardianWhat do we hope to learn from the LHC?What predictions borne from current scientific models might be verified or refuted?
Will the LHC experiments tell us anything new with regard to the very early universe, string theory, branes and the actual origin of the universe?In relation to the EvC debate specifically -Can the findings of the LHC do anything that will provide further positive evidence for the BBT and current cosmological models?Do creationists have any opinions regarding any scientifically predicted results of the LHC experiments?
Will creationists accept verified predictions as lending any weight to current theories? Will refuted predictions take anything away from current theories?Do creationists have any predictions regarding what we should expect to find as a result of the LHC experiments if the 'designer hypothesis' is true?Given that most of the regular creationist contingent are currently banned from the BB&C forum I would prefer that this be put somewhere where they are actually able to participate. However I leave it to moderators to ultimately make that decision.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

You can choose between [forum=-2] and [forum=-15].Creationists currently restricted from the [forum=-2] forum:

• ICANT
• Kendemyer

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I guess we can live without ICANT if it means that there is some moderation of the topic.Never heard of Kendemyer and there are not as many restricted users as I had thought.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Hi StragglerHere's a lecture from one of the physicist working for CERN at the LHC. Its a pretty detailed lecture about the LHC, how it works and what they hope to discover.Enjoy,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cdbnwaW34g

A few things. The first and foremost is "What broke electroweak symmetry?" That is, what is the explicit mechanism where by our world settled into a state where the electroweak force appears as two separate forces. The most commonly used mechanism in our theories is the Higgs field, which basically provides a background against which the electromagnet force and the weak force appear separate. This is similar to how the presence of an atmosphere on earth can make momentum appear not to be conserved.However there are several other supposed mechanisms and the LHC will test them as well. Unfortunately the LHC has been misreported as a machine built to find the Higgs Boson, but that is not its aim. Finding the Higgs boson would mean that the simplest mechanism of electroweak symmetry breaking is the right one. However not finding it wouldn't be some kind of disaster.After that the next major thing would be detecting the presence of supersymmetry particles. Supersymmetry is basically the biggest symmetry a quantum field theory can have and its existence would imply new particles.After that it may be capable of telling us if there is extra dimensions or put limits on how large extra dimensions can be. Several versions of supersymmetry, certain mechanisms of electroweak symmetry breaking and theories with large extra dimensions. The discovery of supersymmetry particles would indicate string theory is on the right track. As for the origin of the universe, the LHC may tell us what material makes up Dark Matter, which is important for cosmology and theories of the early universe. That wouldn't be its direct or expected contribution. Rather it will improve our understanding of particle theory, which may then be used to aid the study of cosmology.

I've followed the progress in construction of the LHC with interest for a long while now, ever since the cancellation of the US supercollider project, and I will be following its activities with great interest. But...I wonder if in the end this period in physics will turn out to be similar to just after the turn of the previous century when the answers to some very perplexing and puzzling problems arrived from a completely unexpected corner. There seem now to be so many different questions, and it would be very unsatisfying if in the end each had an independent answer. Maybe the brute force approach of the LHC will provide those satisfyingly unified and elegant answers, maybe the days when a thinker armed only with pencil and paper could provide the answers are long gone. Still, the answers may yet come from an unexpected source.--Percy

The one major difference between the end of the last century and now is that our current theories are too general for the previous centuries problem solving methods to work. For instance, instead of being able to come up with just any theory there are several strong arguments that no matter what is actually going on, physics at low energies like ours can be described by a quantum field theory. One is constrained by the results of quantum theory and relativity to use quantum field theory. So regardless of what's behind the symmetry breaking, it'll almost certainly still be described by a quantum field theory.In Cosmology, the unanswered questions are more likely to be solved from some unexpected observation. However again we face a different dilemma compared with the previous centuries. In previous centuries existing models had catastrophic failures when applied to the problematic phenomena in question. However this time round we have several models which have no problem describing the phenomena, but no current way of choosing between them. The only reason the LHC is so "powerful" is because you need that much energy to access the energy scale where electroweak symmetry breaking occurs. Unfortunately it's unlikely that you could discover anything about symmetry breaking unless you can access those energies.

Could you explain how they'll be able to detect the extra dimentions?Edited by onifre, : spelling

Surely you've played Half-Life?

Just as an update about the LHC, the latest start up date announced for it is September 10th.CERN | LHC First Beam

I have not, and dont call me surely

I'm sure Son Goku is far more knowledgable on this topic that I am, but in case he/she isn't able to answer for a while, I figured I'd try to help answer your question.Basically, I believe by using the particle accelerator they are able to use extremely high energy to make the small particles, gravitons, which would have access to the additional dimensions. Then, after that, if they detect the energy from the gravitons has just disappeared, this may indicate that that they have escaped to extra dimensions.You may want to read this article, the search for extra dimensions for more info about detecting extra dimensions. The following bit from that article may help answer your question:

quote:

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By producing scores of new particles in high-energy collisions, researchers at Fermilab search for indirect evidence that gravitons are entering and exiting our brane. Needless to say, detecting and sifting through the hundreds of particles created in such a collision is rather difficult. "It's an experimental challenge," Fermilab theorist Joe Lykken says with a wry grin.

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One way Fermilab experimentalists including Heinemann and Landsberg hope to detect extra dimensions is to catch a graviton in the act of disappearing into another dimension. Collisions create a symmetrical ball of energy and, like fireworks, particles should spray in all directions. A tell-tale sign of extra dimensions would be a collision in which visible particles sprayed only in one direction, suggesting that an invisible particle traveled in the other direction. This particle could be the key to extra dimensions”a graviton, leaving our visible universe and disappearing into a fourth spatial dimension.

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Thanks Deftil, good article, very cool explanations. Im wondering how long before results start being verifiable, I would say its going to be years before true results can be confirmed.

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

I was just asking a particle physicist this type of question 2 days ago actually.From what I understand, it will probably be about a year before they even really understand what their detectors are showing. Around that point we can expect some findings, but nothing extremely profound. However, it's not at all unlikely that publicity hounds will be making premature and outrageous claims by that point. Detecting signs of the Higgs boson may likely not be until 2011-2012. That's about when the thorough and reasonable publications about the findings will probably surface. This may be when we find out about extra dimensions research, but I'm not entirely sure in regards to that specific topic.There's one more thing I think I should mention about extra dimensons btw. Many people seem to raise the objection that the idea of energy escaping into other dimensions violates the first law of thermodynamics, conservation of energy. This, from what I understand, doesn't have to be the case however. It would just mean that gravitational energy has access to more dimensions than other forms of energy. The energy would essentially be conserved, it would just be going somewhere we weren't previously aware of. The reason why we wouldn't have notice this effect of energy leakage into another dimensions before, in our normal experience, is because we don't have experience observing gravitons, which can only be made in the extremely high energy environment of a powerful particle accelerator.